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okay so test of telepathy using

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immersive virtual reality

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in a sense this was a you know take a

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quick step back i'm

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sort of pitching this you know hopefully

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um you know

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this isn't too sort of basic for

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everybody out there but you know it's

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sort of a general sort of overview and

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then to talk about the paper that i just

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published looking at this project

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and why i thought using virtual reality

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was even a good idea um

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so let's moving on here

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so telepathy as i'm sure most of you are

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aware is this idea that one person can

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acquire

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or

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from the

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consciousness of another individual or

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another conscious being use it or via a

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quote-unquote non-usual route

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there are lots of different terms that

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are used to describe telepathy include

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mental telepathy thought transference

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mental suggestion mind reading to name

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but a few um interestingly it's one of

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the most common or commonly reported

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experiences when people talk about psy

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as a sort of generic uh psychological

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consumers sort of science experiences um

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and yet it's an extremely difficult it

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represents a challenge to our

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understanding of cause and effect you

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know how

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how could it be how how could this occur

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how could

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the thoughts

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emotions feelings of one individual be

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picked up by another individual at a

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distance and certainly a

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challenge so over time there have been a

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number of paradigms that have explored

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this and i just wanted to sort of set

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the stage uh here i'm sure most a lot of

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you are aware of lots of these different

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sort of approaches and they include

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things like spontaneous cases what i've

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sort of grouped together as

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communication and dream telepathy so the

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spontaneous cases are those ones where

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individuals may have a sort of

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impression of danger or alarm often from

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a loved one or cool cases some of the

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early cases from ryan's uh work was some

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very interesting stuff there rupert

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sheldrake has sort of led the way um in

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exploring um uh what i would call

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communication

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paradigm looking at both telephone

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telepathy this idea that before we had

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these these things um we used to have

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those old sort of baker like phones um

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that you you know when the phone rang

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you'd have that sort of feeling that

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you'd know who it was and you know in a

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sense it's love i think it's a nice idea

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as well because he takes those things

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and then it sort of empirically tests

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them you know can you then you know can

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you assess whether people are or not

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more accurate than chance

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and they found some really interesting

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stuff there also using text and email

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there's a huge amount of work on dream

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telepathy the idea that an individual

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you may be able to sort of

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transfer or relate information to an

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individual whilst they're in a

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particular dream state usually in rem

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sleep etc

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there's the what i call the obligatory

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mention of twin telepathy study and i'd

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totally uh recommend guy lyon playfair's

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book on twin telepathy when i looked at

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this when i was exploring the area and i

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was trying to figure out how we could

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how we could sort of approach this you

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know everybody spoke to me said oh if

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you thought about twins and i did look

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at some one of the things that i was

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fascinated by

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definitely there's evidence that the the

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twins report this closer connection that

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everybody thinks they have but what i

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was surprised about is the

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almost lack of empirical evidence and

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it's not for want of trying as guy

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mentioned his book there's a number of

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efforts been made but it's actually

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surprising the lack of any evidence and

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it's you know not fault of trying so

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it's certainly an area that's right for

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uh

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continued research and what i've called

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telepathy in the brain so there's a

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whole field there looking at

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sort of correlating different uh aspects

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of the eeg

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different you know if you think of just

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the electrical activity of the brain and

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what they're trying to do there is evoke

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a response in in one person and see if

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you can identify a similar sort of

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physiological response in another person

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and there's been some really interesting

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studies there not always replicated or

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the one a very nice piece of work by

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standish and colleagues

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using fmri so functional magnetic

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resonance imaging uh looking at changes

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in blood oxygenation level dependence so

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it's literally blood flow so it's really

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nice

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idea

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now

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all of that's background and to me it's

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you know when i came to this uh as with

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everybody who whom i've spoken to

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outside of the field of parapsychology

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they're always you know there's not much

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work on this so there's no evidence and

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yet when you look at that it's a very

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very brief snapshot there is a huge

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amount of work going on

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and the gansfeld is actually i think

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probably one of the most robust it seems

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to me one of the most robust paradigms

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within telepathy

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and it's a really interesting idea this

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is this notion that what you do is you

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take your your pair your sender and your

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receiver uh separate rooms and then you

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isolate the receiver as you can see down

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here in the bottom right this is you

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know our sender and our receiver and

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generally speaking happens is our

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receiver gets sort of put in this sort

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of sensory isolation

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uh sort of uh set up where they may be

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you know sitting in a relaxed chair or

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lying down

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they have headphones on would play a

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sort of either a white noise or a pink

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noise it's that sort of thing

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sound um they may have these half ping

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pong balls over their eyes red light

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shon on their face so they get a sort of

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diffuse visual field so there's

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literally this literally is completely

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sort of cuts off all sensory input and

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sort of it helps to increase what

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hollington suggested was a receptive

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altered state and also um there's some

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suggestion that you know what you're

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trying to do with this is increase the

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signal to noise ratio you know by

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decreasing the sort of noise out there

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and there's there's quite a staggering

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amount i've put you know some being

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quite cautious of course but some

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positive results uh interestingly uh for

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those of you there's a most interesting

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meta-analysis mostly interesting most

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recent uh patricio trasol d lance storm

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uh this one's recently come out it's

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just going through the it's really nice

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again once again a meta-analysis showing

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that a small but significantly robust

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effect you know when you look at the the

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paradigm here

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and

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bayesian stats there's definitely

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something going on here not everybody

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agrees if you look at milton weissman

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etc you know they were they have some

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contentious ideas there but certainly

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there's you know this is a really

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interesting paradigm and there's also

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associations between things like belief

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and the strength of the relationship

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between the sender and the recent this

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is where i came in and i was thinking

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okay

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i sort of came from it from a slightly

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technical sense in the sense that if i'm

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honest we had the kit in the lab and i

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had my tech guys were saying you know

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can you figure out is there anything you

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can do with this and so i was trying to

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think of of studies that i could use

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this virtual reality kit that we had or

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still have it's called the oculus kit

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and when i looked at this and i was

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looking at the sort of sender and

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receiver and it struck me that a lot of

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the focus is on the receiver

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the sender often just sits in another

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room they're looking at a computer

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screen an image or you know paper image

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or whatever it is but they're just

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looking at a target and i thought i

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wonder if we can do anything with that

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and so it made me think about you know

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you know using virtual reality

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okay so first question is why are using

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virtual reality in the first place well

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um i think and that was partly what the

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rationale of this study was as well it's

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a sort of litmus test

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with whether vr could be potentially

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useful in this field well i think it

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provides us with a very nice

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immersive environment to put our

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participants in and the phrase i like uh

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which i think sort of encapsulates it is

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is it provides you with what i call

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enhanced ecological validity without

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sacrificing experimental control it

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gives you a lot more control over what

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your participants are exposed to uh in a

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safe way and that's particularly useful

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if you want to put them in sort of

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situations that are highly arousing uh

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etc and there's a lot of research in the

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stream literature showing that you know

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when people are

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immersed within a virtual reality

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environment their emotional responses

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are very very significant so they

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they're able to produce you know virtual

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reality is able to elicit if you like a

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very robust issue response from

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individuals

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often people exhibit

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more or greater

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significantly greater recall of

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information that they are exposed to in

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that virtual environment and once again

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they show greater physiological changes

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compared to staticus so there's

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certainly a lot of evidence i think that

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when you immerse people in those

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environments they they are sort of fully

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immersed in them and they can be really

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really useful

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and so i thought to myself okay well

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what we should do then it was literally

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just flipping it around i mean i don't

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have a we don't have lots of labs and uh

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i didn't at that time and still don't at

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the moment have a couch for a receiver

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you know to be able to sort of sensory

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isolate them so i thought well the whole

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point here is to immerse the sender

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in a in a sort of a written environment

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so right staring at an image staring at

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a screen or a piece of paper

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that might depict a particular target

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i wanted them to experience that that

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whatever it is okay and so the idea is

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that the sender would experience sort of

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uh

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experience

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meanwhile the receiver in a completely

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separate room would go through a sort of

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semi

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um

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sort of semi uh

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00:09:59,910 --> 00:09:58,240
uh would you call it anyway

281
00:10:02,710 --> 00:09:59,920
um i'm trying to think of the word and

282
00:10:04,550 --> 00:10:02,720
failing utterly or whatever um but

283
00:10:07,269 --> 00:10:04,560
they're not quite uh in the sensory

284
00:10:09,829 --> 00:10:07,279
isolation but it's all sem semi-isolated

285
00:10:14,150 --> 00:10:09,839
is the phrase i was grappling for badly

286
00:10:15,750 --> 00:10:14,160
so so semi-auto phrase space sorry

287
00:10:18,550 --> 00:10:15,760
as you can see here

288
00:10:20,710 --> 00:10:18,560
our receiver would be i mean this is one

289
00:10:21,910 --> 00:10:20,720
of the tech guys modeling for these um

290
00:10:23,350 --> 00:10:21,920
but obviously these would be different

291
00:10:25,110 --> 00:10:23,360
people so

292
00:10:27,190 --> 00:10:25,120
what would happen is our sender would be

293
00:10:29,350 --> 00:10:27,200
in one lab with the virtual bond you

294
00:10:31,990 --> 00:10:29,360
can't quite see but down here there's a

295
00:10:33,910 --> 00:10:32,000
framework uh that the the sender holds

296
00:10:35,750 --> 00:10:33,920
on to and that's absolutely important

297
00:10:37,350 --> 00:10:35,760
and you'll see why in a minute um and

298
00:10:39,190 --> 00:10:37,360
they can't see anything else around them

299
00:10:40,470 --> 00:10:39,200
there's also an ex there's a researcher

300
00:10:42,230 --> 00:10:40,480
in that lab with them for health and

301
00:10:45,430 --> 00:10:42,240
safety reasons

302
00:10:47,910 --> 00:10:45,440
eva sits in another lab watches this gif

303
00:10:49,670 --> 00:10:47,920
and tries to breathe in time with that

304
00:10:52,550 --> 00:10:49,680
meanwhile they're also listening to pink

305
00:10:54,230 --> 00:10:52,560
noise now it's not completely isolated

306
00:10:56,310 --> 00:10:54,240
in the same way that a sort of typical

307
00:10:57,670 --> 00:10:56,320
ganzfeld is and that might be you know

308
00:10:59,269 --> 00:10:57,680
might be a weakness of the study and

309
00:11:01,829 --> 00:10:59,279
something we come back to

310
00:11:03,750 --> 00:11:01,839
okay um so just a little bit of the sort

311
00:11:05,590 --> 00:11:03,760
of technical background let me just play

312
00:11:07,350 --> 00:11:05,600
this gif here i put that in for you so

313
00:11:10,230 --> 00:11:07,360
you could see what that gif looks like

314
00:11:11,990 --> 00:11:10,240
um so we managed to recruit pairs of

315
00:11:14,310 --> 00:11:12,000
participants eleven pairs of

316
00:11:16,790 --> 00:11:14,320
participants nine identified as friends

317
00:11:19,670 --> 00:11:16,800
and two were married

318
00:11:22,389 --> 00:11:19,680
we also excuse me we also monitored or

319
00:11:24,389 --> 00:11:22,399
measured uh belief in terms of we used

320
00:11:27,350 --> 00:11:24,399
the revised paranormal belief scale we

321
00:11:29,590 --> 00:11:27,360
had up some kit here two-way radios

322
00:11:31,910 --> 00:11:29,600
headphones to play the pink noise and

323
00:11:34,150 --> 00:11:31,920
gif that the receivers

324
00:11:36,389 --> 00:11:34,160
would be watching whilst they're having

325
00:11:37,590 --> 00:11:36,399
that pink noise played

326
00:11:41,030 --> 00:11:37,600
now

327
00:11:43,910 --> 00:11:41,040
in terms of creating a sort of

328
00:11:45,829 --> 00:11:43,920
target set this took quite uh

329
00:11:47,670 --> 00:11:45,839
i had two guys working with me on i

330
00:11:50,550 --> 00:11:47,680
should have said at the outset um tom

331
00:11:52,629 --> 00:11:50,560
sanford and eric moyo and tom and eric

332
00:11:55,910 --> 00:11:52,639
were spent a lot of time

333
00:11:58,310 --> 00:11:55,920
um identifying clips now the way we did

334
00:12:00,790 --> 00:11:58,320
this is there's a standardized image

335
00:12:02,470 --> 00:12:00,800
database called the iaps database which

336
00:12:04,870 --> 00:12:02,480
is very useful because it already has

337
00:12:06,870 --> 00:12:04,880
ratings for things like arousal and

338
00:12:09,269 --> 00:12:06,880
valence so sort of you know how

339
00:12:11,190 --> 00:12:09,279
stimulating a particular image is and

340
00:12:12,069 --> 00:12:11,200
whether it's positive or negative and

341
00:12:15,670 --> 00:12:12,079
you know

342
00:12:17,829 --> 00:12:15,680
and so what we did is we created sets

343
00:12:20,470 --> 00:12:17,839
of five you know if images as you can

344
00:12:22,870 --> 00:12:20,480
see this is just this represents one set

345
00:12:26,310 --> 00:12:22,880
okay so what we did

346
00:12:28,629 --> 00:12:26,320
based we created ten sets of five images

347
00:12:31,030 --> 00:12:28,639
and all of the images were matched for

348
00:12:33,110 --> 00:12:31,040
valence and arousal we then randomly

349
00:12:36,230 --> 00:12:33,120
allocated you know or identified one of

350
00:12:38,069 --> 00:12:36,240
those uh as the target and there was a

351
00:12:40,710 --> 00:12:38,079
bit of give and take here because we had

352
00:12:42,230 --> 00:12:40,720
to a lot of it might be based on uh you

353
00:12:45,269 --> 00:12:42,240
know whether we could try and get or

354
00:12:47,110 --> 00:12:45,279
create a clip a vr clip of of the

355
00:12:49,509 --> 00:12:47,120
experience so you know just to give you

356
00:12:51,110 --> 00:12:49,519
an idea um hopefully you can see this

357
00:12:53,430 --> 00:12:51,120
this is a guy sort of jumping off a

358
00:12:55,030 --> 00:12:53,440
cliff skydiving this is the typical sort

359
00:12:57,350 --> 00:12:55,040
of roller coaster

360
00:12:58,550 --> 00:12:57,360
um i think you call it i'm not sure what

361
00:13:00,629 --> 00:12:58,560
you call it in america if it's roller

362
00:13:03,509 --> 00:13:00,639
coaster whatever roller coaster hot air

363
00:13:05,350 --> 00:13:03,519
ballooning this is our chap ski skiing

364
00:13:07,110 --> 00:13:05,360
down the infamous ski slope you know

365
00:13:09,350 --> 00:13:07,120
jumping off the jump at the end and this

366
00:13:12,069 --> 00:13:09,360
is a water slide

367
00:13:13,829 --> 00:13:12,079
so we've got these five clips and what

368
00:13:14,949 --> 00:13:13,839
we did is we identified one as the

369
00:13:17,829 --> 00:13:14,959
target

370
00:13:20,949 --> 00:13:17,839
and let's just move on

371
00:13:23,829 --> 00:13:20,959
we then created a sequence of

372
00:13:26,310 --> 00:13:23,839
of clips where we embedded the targets

373
00:13:28,389 --> 00:13:26,320
in between what we called relaxation

374
00:13:29,670 --> 00:13:28,399
clips and i'll give you an example of

375
00:13:31,590 --> 00:13:29,680
that in a minute this is just to show

376
00:13:33,350 --> 00:13:31,600
you how it works so what would happen is

377
00:13:35,269 --> 00:13:33,360
to put this is the person who gets

378
00:13:37,430 --> 00:13:35,279
put into the vr environment it's a sort

379
00:13:39,750 --> 00:13:37,440
of stand everything has to be set and

380
00:13:42,069 --> 00:13:39,760
was timed because the two

381
00:13:43,990 --> 00:13:42,079
uh participants were sort of operating

382
00:13:47,430 --> 00:13:44,000
independently but we had to sort of time

383
00:13:50,389 --> 00:13:47,440
their responses to coincide

384
00:13:52,150 --> 00:13:50,399
um so our sender would you know see this

385
00:13:54,389 --> 00:13:52,160
relaxing clip of

386
00:13:56,389 --> 00:13:54,399
waves coming up on the beach and they'd

387
00:13:59,269 --> 00:13:56,399
hear the waves and that the idea is that

388
00:14:02,230 --> 00:13:59,279
they relax for 45 seconds then the video

389
00:14:04,870 --> 00:14:02,240
would bleed into a target for 30 seconds

390
00:14:06,470 --> 00:14:04,880
and back to relaxation target and so on

391
00:14:08,470 --> 00:14:06,480
so it'll be five targets and at the end

392
00:14:11,430 --> 00:14:08,480
there'd be another religion bit now i've

393
00:14:13,269 --> 00:14:11,440
got a clip here i want to show you so

394
00:14:14,470 --> 00:14:13,279
let me i'm not going to show you all of

395
00:14:17,269 --> 00:14:14,480
this because it's you know it's rather

396
00:14:19,990 --> 00:14:17,279
boring but hopefully let me just pause

397
00:14:21,829 --> 00:14:20,000
that just for a second so this is uh the

398
00:14:23,269 --> 00:14:21,839
relaxation clip i'll play it in a second

399
00:14:25,590 --> 00:14:23,279
but it's just so i don't have to go over

400
00:14:26,710 --> 00:14:25,600
the audio um you can see it's slightly

401
00:14:28,550 --> 00:14:26,720
curved

402
00:14:30,870 --> 00:14:28,560
okay and that's because of course what

403
00:14:34,230 --> 00:14:30,880
we're doing here is we're mapping that

404
00:14:36,550 --> 00:14:34,240
uh 360 degrees image that the vr

405
00:14:38,389 --> 00:14:36,560
participants would see onto the 2d

406
00:14:40,310 --> 00:14:38,399
screen that you guys can see okay so it

407
00:14:42,310 --> 00:14:40,320
looks to be distorted so you know take

408
00:14:43,990 --> 00:14:42,320
that into account

409
00:14:46,150 --> 00:14:44,000
so if i just play it and i can just turn

410
00:14:47,590 --> 00:14:46,160
the sound down maybe so a little bit so

411
00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:47,600
you can hear the waves you can see the

412
00:14:52,230 --> 00:14:50,320
waves there in the background okay so

413
00:14:53,509 --> 00:14:52,240
the idea is that i need to keep an eye

414
00:14:55,670 --> 00:14:53,519
on the time because i don't need to go

415
00:14:56,550 --> 00:14:55,680
on to the next one just so the idea is

416
00:14:57,509 --> 00:14:56,560
our

417
00:14:59,189 --> 00:14:57,519
sender

418
00:15:01,590 --> 00:14:59,199
would be sitting you know standing in

419
00:15:03,509 --> 00:15:01,600
the in the lab with vr helmet on they

420
00:15:05,350 --> 00:15:03,519
can look around this is a completely

421
00:15:08,069 --> 00:15:05,360
sort of immersive environment it's nice

422
00:15:10,069 --> 00:15:08,079
sort of blue sky a few clouds the sunset

423
00:15:12,389 --> 00:15:10,079
and the waves the idea is that this was

424
00:15:14,150 --> 00:15:12,399
just them relax and get into

425
00:15:15,990 --> 00:15:14,160
into it and then

426
00:15:18,069 --> 00:15:16,000
along would come a

427
00:15:19,269 --> 00:15:18,079
target clip so let's move that along a

428
00:15:20,629 --> 00:15:19,279
bit

429
00:15:31,110 --> 00:15:20,639
and it would bleed into one of the

430
00:15:35,430 --> 00:15:34,150
just so you know this is our man skiing

431
00:15:37,590 --> 00:15:35,440
the

432
00:15:43,590 --> 00:15:37,600
ramp so again

433
00:15:47,350 --> 00:15:45,110
and that's why we had to have the frame

434
00:15:50,389 --> 00:15:47,360
as well because you know people move

435
00:15:52,550 --> 00:15:50,399
see this they're sort of like oh

436
00:15:54,150 --> 00:15:52,560
and they jump down way

437
00:15:56,470 --> 00:15:54,160
and everything's happy you know

438
00:15:57,829 --> 00:15:56,480
everyone's you know claps etc and they

439
00:16:00,310 --> 00:15:57,839
get it

440
00:16:03,189 --> 00:16:00,320
so the idea is that you know that's a

441
00:16:05,749 --> 00:16:03,199
very immersive well ideally it's a very

442
00:16:08,710 --> 00:16:05,759
immersive but also um an emotionally

443
00:16:10,389 --> 00:16:08,720
arousing and positive experience for the

444
00:16:11,670 --> 00:16:10,399
sender so the idea is that we wanted to

445
00:16:14,710 --> 00:16:11,680
immerse the sender in this really

446
00:16:16,550 --> 00:16:14,720
positive experience that was slightly um

447
00:16:17,990 --> 00:16:16,560
sort of like an adrenaline experience as

448
00:16:19,110 --> 00:16:18,000
well it would make them feel sort of

449
00:16:19,990 --> 00:16:19,120
like wow

450
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:20,000
um

451
00:16:22,550 --> 00:16:21,279
and of course we wanted to find out

452
00:16:29,910 --> 00:16:22,560
whether

453
00:16:32,069 --> 00:16:29,920
pick that up so there's an outline of

454
00:16:33,430 --> 00:16:32,079
the procedure i'll just take you through

455
00:16:36,470 --> 00:16:33,440
it

456
00:16:37,990 --> 00:16:36,480
obviously you know if any of this

457
00:16:40,389 --> 00:16:38,000
doesn't make sense

458
00:16:42,629 --> 00:16:40,399
feel free to ask questions at the end

459
00:16:45,430 --> 00:16:42,639
so we recruited our participants in

460
00:16:47,509 --> 00:16:45,440
pairs uh we brought them to the lab um

461
00:16:49,590 --> 00:16:47,519
we then you know they

462
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:49,600
we got them to exchange a personal item

463
00:16:53,269 --> 00:16:50,880
at the outset

464
00:16:54,710 --> 00:16:53,279
knew that once the sender was immersed

465
00:16:57,350 --> 00:16:54,720
in that virtual environment we didn't

466
00:16:59,829 --> 00:16:57,360
want them to forget about their their

467
00:17:01,749 --> 00:16:59,839
partner so we got them to exchange

468
00:17:03,110 --> 00:17:01,759
personal items and it was a ring it was

469
00:17:04,630 --> 00:17:03,120
their choice whatever they wanted and

470
00:17:07,510 --> 00:17:04,640
that the idea is they held that in their

471
00:17:09,510 --> 00:17:07,520
hand as a cue as a reminder of their

472
00:17:11,829 --> 00:17:09,520
partner so imagine the two people would

473
00:17:13,429 --> 00:17:11,839
come to the lab and they would complete

474
00:17:14,870 --> 00:17:13,439
the revised paranormal belief scale

475
00:17:16,549 --> 00:17:14,880
separately then they'd exchange a

476
00:17:19,189 --> 00:17:16,559
personal item and then we'd have two

477
00:17:21,590 --> 00:17:19,199
experimenters taking the sender and the

478
00:17:23,429 --> 00:17:21,600
receiver to different labs

479
00:17:25,990 --> 00:17:23,439
and then the sender would get set up in

480
00:17:27,350 --> 00:17:26,000
the vr kit okay and then they would go

481
00:17:28,470 --> 00:17:27,360
through the sequence where they might

482
00:17:30,789 --> 00:17:28,480
see you know

483
00:17:32,230 --> 00:17:30,799
they'd see a set number of videos which

484
00:17:34,470 --> 00:17:32,240
is you know includes targets and each

485
00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:34,480
relaxing scene etc and

486
00:17:38,630 --> 00:17:36,000
what we call the target you know when

487
00:17:40,789 --> 00:17:38,640
they're seeing skiing down the um

488
00:17:42,549 --> 00:17:40,799
ramp for example that's when we told

489
00:17:44,470 --> 00:17:42,559
them that when this is occurring we want

490
00:17:46,870 --> 00:17:44,480
you to sort of think about you know keep

491
00:17:48,870 --> 00:17:46,880
that item in your hand and think about

492
00:17:50,470 --> 00:17:48,880
your partner being with you in that

493
00:17:53,590 --> 00:17:50,480
experience you know try and think of

494
00:17:56,070 --> 00:17:53,600
them and send that to them meanwhile our

495
00:17:57,590 --> 00:17:56,080
receiver is in a separate lab they have

496
00:17:59,990 --> 00:17:57,600
that set up as you saw earlier they've

497
00:18:01,270 --> 00:18:00,000
got the headphones with the pink noise

498
00:18:03,029 --> 00:18:01,280
and they're watching that gif and

499
00:18:04,150 --> 00:18:03,039
they're just relaxing and breathing

500
00:18:06,070 --> 00:18:04,160
they're all

501
00:18:08,310 --> 00:18:06,080
thinking of their partner okay and

502
00:18:10,070 --> 00:18:08,320
they're trying to just relax and just

503
00:18:11,430 --> 00:18:10,080
think of their partner that's all we ask

504
00:18:14,549 --> 00:18:11,440
them to do think of the partner and then

505
00:18:16,630 --> 00:18:14,559
when the video switches up here so the

506
00:18:18,390 --> 00:18:16,640
sender it shifts from say you know

507
00:18:19,830 --> 00:18:18,400
skiing down the slope it shifts back to

508
00:18:22,070 --> 00:18:19,840
the calm b

509
00:18:23,029 --> 00:18:22,080
the sender just relaxes it's like ah

510
00:18:24,870 --> 00:18:23,039
breathe

511
00:18:27,350 --> 00:18:24,880
and then what happens to the receiver

512
00:18:29,830 --> 00:18:27,360
they get a an automatic this is why it

513
00:18:31,990 --> 00:18:29,840
was important because the computer that

514
00:18:33,430 --> 00:18:32,000
was playing the gif automatically

515
00:18:35,750 --> 00:18:33,440
shifted to

516
00:18:37,590 --> 00:18:35,760
presentation of a set edges you can see

517
00:18:40,710 --> 00:18:37,600
up here on the right so it would show

518
00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:40,720
them a set of of the five images

519
00:18:45,590 --> 00:18:43,600
and ask them to rank those images one to

520
00:18:48,070 --> 00:18:45,600
five in terms of the one you think your

521
00:18:50,390 --> 00:18:48,080
partner had just experienced one being

522
00:18:53,350 --> 00:18:50,400
the most likely five the least likely

523
00:18:54,870 --> 00:18:53,360
etc and they would do that five times

524
00:18:56,390 --> 00:18:54,880
then we would take them to separate

525
00:18:58,950 --> 00:18:56,400
holding rooms so we could swap them

526
00:19:00,710 --> 00:18:58,960
around without contact and reverse the

527
00:19:02,789 --> 00:19:00,720
procedure so the person who was the

528
00:19:04,150 --> 00:19:02,799
sender you know now became the receiver

529
00:19:05,750 --> 00:19:04,160
the person who was the receiver now

530
00:19:07,029 --> 00:19:05,760
became the sender and at the end they

531
00:19:09,590 --> 00:19:07,039
would then repeat

532
00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:09,600
complete another set of new trials and

533
00:19:13,430 --> 00:19:11,600
do the same sort of procedure again and

534
00:19:14,470 --> 00:19:13,440
then we bring them back at the end and a

535
00:19:16,950 --> 00:19:14,480
debrief

536
00:19:18,789 --> 00:19:16,960
so that's the procedure

537
00:19:20,390 --> 00:19:18,799
so uh despite and there was no

538
00:19:22,630 --> 00:19:20,400
interaction

539
00:19:24,070 --> 00:19:22,640
it wasn't completely isolated didn't

540
00:19:26,070 --> 00:19:24,080
interact with the participants whilst

541
00:19:28,789 --> 00:19:26,080
they were doing their tasks and

542
00:19:31,110 --> 00:19:28,799
certainly the receiver

543
00:19:32,470 --> 00:19:31,120
in and it went from the gif to the you

544
00:19:34,070 --> 00:19:32,480
know presenting them with the target

545
00:19:37,590 --> 00:19:34,080
images and they were supposed to rank

546
00:19:39,350 --> 00:19:37,600
them etc and despite the fact that

547
00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:39,360
i'm laughing say this because it seemed

548
00:19:45,909 --> 00:19:43,200
pretty clear to us and um it seems quite

549
00:19:47,830 --> 00:19:45,919
a simple task you know rank the images

550
00:19:50,549 --> 00:19:47,840
one to five

551
00:19:53,110 --> 00:19:50,559
but one person ranks more than one image

552
00:19:54,070 --> 00:19:53,120
with with the number one so we excluded

553
00:19:54,950 --> 00:19:54,080
him

554
00:19:56,549 --> 00:19:54,960
uh

555
00:19:58,789 --> 00:19:56,559
and then we just looked at the hit rate

556
00:20:00,950 --> 00:19:58,799
so you know one out of five we compared

557
00:20:03,750 --> 00:20:00,960
that to mean chance and as you can see

558
00:20:06,149 --> 00:20:03,760
here we didn't find an effect you know

559
00:20:08,310 --> 00:20:06,159
uh hit rate was 26

560
00:20:10,549 --> 00:20:08,320
okay and one sample t test shows that

561
00:20:12,390 --> 00:20:10,559
this is not significant um interestingly

562
00:20:14,470 --> 00:20:12,400
there was a correlation between hit rate

563
00:20:16,470 --> 00:20:14,480
and the psi subscale of the revised

564
00:20:18,789 --> 00:20:16,480
paranormal belief scale but nothing else

565
00:20:21,029 --> 00:20:18,799
there's no other correlations but it was

566
00:20:22,710 --> 00:20:21,039
this bit when i saw this and i thought

567
00:20:25,830 --> 00:20:22,720
that's interesting it's not nothing it's

568
00:20:27,909 --> 00:20:25,840
close you know it's like 26 percent

569
00:20:30,070 --> 00:20:27,919
that literally just taking

570
00:20:31,990 --> 00:20:30,080
you know the hit rate and i thought okay

571
00:20:33,350 --> 00:20:32,000
well let's do a bit of exploratory

572
00:20:36,149 --> 00:20:33,360
analysis

573
00:20:38,870 --> 00:20:36,159
so um what i then did is i looked at the

574
00:20:41,270 --> 00:20:38,880
top two ranks okay so now it's you know

575
00:20:43,270 --> 00:20:41,280
whether they identified the target the

576
00:20:44,789 --> 00:20:43,280
top two either one or two

577
00:20:46,710 --> 00:20:44,799
and you know since then i've gone back

578
00:20:48,630 --> 00:20:46,720
and said well okay maybe that wasn't

579
00:20:50,149 --> 00:20:48,640
maybe the whole sort of ranking one to

580
00:20:51,750 --> 00:20:50,159
five you could think of different ways

581
00:20:53,909 --> 00:20:51,760
of doing that but

582
00:20:56,470 --> 00:20:53,919
i can talk about that later but anyway i

583
00:20:58,230 --> 00:20:56,480
went back and did this of course we did

584
00:21:00,789 --> 00:20:58,240
a bond for action just controlling for

585
00:21:02,710 --> 00:21:00,799
inflated type one errors and

586
00:21:04,470 --> 00:21:02,720
lo and behold what we found and this was

587
00:21:07,590 --> 00:21:04,480
one-tailed but it was a significant

588
00:21:10,310 --> 00:21:07,600
effect so uh the hit rate here was 52

589
00:21:12,149 --> 00:21:10,320
when you'd expect a chance uh to be uh

590
00:21:13,669 --> 00:21:12,159
whatever it is i can't remember off the

591
00:21:18,870 --> 00:21:13,679
oh chance you see there it is it's there

592
00:21:21,590 --> 00:21:20,230
so

593
00:21:23,909 --> 00:21:21,600
you know that was encouraging we were

594
00:21:27,110 --> 00:21:23,919
very encouraged by that so

595
00:21:29,270 --> 00:21:27,120
being cautious of course um you know i i

596
00:21:31,510 --> 00:21:29,280
wouldn't say that there's a clear effect

597
00:21:35,350 --> 00:21:31,520
of telepath

598
00:21:37,190 --> 00:21:35,360
you know with some in the literature but

599
00:21:39,909 --> 00:21:37,200
when you look at the top two choices

600
00:21:41,830 --> 00:21:39,919
there's a possible indication you know

601
00:21:44,310 --> 00:21:41,840
and there was a pos

602
00:21:46,789 --> 00:21:44,320
it's parallel

603
00:21:49,830 --> 00:21:46,799
and you know and i think

604
00:21:50,870 --> 00:21:49,840
that what part of the deals

605
00:21:51,830 --> 00:21:50,880
you know

606
00:21:58,549 --> 00:21:51,840
is

607
00:22:01,029 --> 00:21:58,559
test could we use virtual reality um

608
00:22:03,190 --> 00:22:01,039
to test for telepathy could be a useful

609
00:22:05,029 --> 00:22:03,200
paradigm you know could we develop this

610
00:22:07,669 --> 00:22:05,039
in certain ways and i think as a you

611
00:22:09,590 --> 00:22:07,679
know as a sort of toe in the water uh

612
00:22:11,590 --> 00:22:09,600
you know test i think this produced some

613
00:22:13,270 --> 00:22:11,600
really interesting findings um there's

614
00:22:14,710 --> 00:22:13,280
lots of

615
00:22:16,630 --> 00:22:14,720
ideas

616
00:22:18,149 --> 00:22:16,640
you know we've got about tapes forward

617
00:22:19,909 --> 00:22:18,159
there's lots of issues of course you

618
00:22:21,430 --> 00:22:19,919
know this is very much a sort of

619
00:22:25,510 --> 00:22:21,440
exploratory

620
00:22:27,590 --> 00:22:25,520
sort of you know pilot test if you like

621
00:22:29,430 --> 00:22:27,600
so there are a number of issues of

622
00:22:31,909 --> 00:22:29,440
course when we reflect back on that you

623
00:22:35,190 --> 00:22:31,919
know we assume that those targets used

624
00:22:37,909 --> 00:22:35,200
were arousing um in the sense uh that we

625
00:22:39,590 --> 00:22:37,919
use those from the iaps database and uh

626
00:22:41,510 --> 00:22:39,600
you know they they were identified as

627
00:22:43,750 --> 00:22:41,520
arousing but we took no physiological

628
00:22:45,110 --> 00:22:43,760
measures um so that's an assumption and

629
00:22:46,870 --> 00:22:45,120
certainly you know that's something we

630
00:22:48,789 --> 00:22:46,880
could easily measure in the future so we

631
00:22:50,470 --> 00:22:48,799
could go and in fact one of the things

632
00:22:52,870 --> 00:22:50,480
that we we thought about as well is that

633
00:22:53,590 --> 00:22:52,880
you could almost you could look at the

634
00:22:56,470 --> 00:22:53,600
uh

635
00:22:59,190 --> 00:22:56,480
well at potential changes in physiology

636
00:23:01,029 --> 00:22:59,200
of both sender and receiver so you know

637
00:23:03,029 --> 00:23:01,039
looking at arousal levels there could be

638
00:23:05,110 --> 00:23:03,039
really interesting it was a bit of an

639
00:23:06,630 --> 00:23:05,120
intense trial sequence you know as it

640
00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:06,640
was you know for the senders it was

641
00:23:11,029 --> 00:23:09,120
literally in a relaxed target relaxed

642
00:23:13,190 --> 00:23:11,039
target really you know so it might be

643
00:23:15,110 --> 00:23:13,200
better to have one or two targets come

644
00:23:17,029 --> 00:23:15,120
back another day run a few more trials

645
00:23:19,110 --> 00:23:17,039
you know and so on so that could have

646
00:23:20,149 --> 00:23:19,120
been an issue

647
00:23:22,630 --> 00:23:20,159
was

648
00:23:25,909 --> 00:23:22,640
to some extent well to a great extent

649
00:23:27,990 --> 00:23:25,919
was dictated by our ability to find

650
00:23:29,909 --> 00:23:28,000
virtual reality clips

651
00:23:32,470 --> 00:23:29,919
um we bought a couple we managed to

652
00:23:34,310 --> 00:23:32,480
snaffle a few off the internet um and it

653
00:23:37,430 --> 00:23:34,320
was a challenge we don't have

654
00:23:39,830 --> 00:23:37,440
like a 60 camera to create our own clips

655
00:23:42,470 --> 00:23:39,840
and part of part of our hope with this

656
00:23:44,070 --> 00:23:42,480
is to try and get some sort of uh

657
00:23:46,070 --> 00:23:44,080
research projects off the ground where

658
00:23:47,830 --> 00:23:46,080
we can start you know now we were

659
00:23:49,990 --> 00:23:47,840
suggesting that that you know this is

660
00:23:51,830 --> 00:23:50,000
worth exploring we could try and apply

661
00:23:53,269 --> 00:23:51,840
for grant to get that sort of kit but at

662
00:23:55,909 --> 00:23:53,279
you know at this moment in time we don't

663
00:23:57,830 --> 00:23:55,919
have that and it might be that longer

664
00:23:59,350 --> 00:23:57,840
more immersive environments might be

665
00:24:00,870 --> 00:23:59,360
better

666
00:24:02,950 --> 00:24:00,880
and it may be that you know the target

667
00:24:06,070 --> 00:24:02,960
pool was too similar as well you know

668
00:24:08,149 --> 00:24:06,080
because every one of those uh um well

669
00:24:11,269 --> 00:24:08,159
the target and the decoys were all of a

670
00:24:13,510 --> 00:24:11,279
similar arousal level um and all of the

671
00:24:14,950 --> 00:24:13,520
targets were similarly arousing they

672
00:24:17,990 --> 00:24:14,960
were just different types so it was like

673
00:24:20,950 --> 00:24:18,000
a motorbike uh racing around the tt

674
00:24:23,990 --> 00:24:20,960
men's uh isle of man uh jumping off a

675
00:24:25,430 --> 00:24:24,000
cliff hanging space walk

676
00:24:27,669 --> 00:24:25,440
skiing down the slope you know they're

677
00:24:30,549 --> 00:24:27,679
all very sort of um sort of adrenaline

678
00:24:32,230 --> 00:24:30,559
inducing uh uh positive experiences well

679
00:24:34,149 --> 00:24:32,240
i'm saying positive i mean some you know

680
00:24:37,830 --> 00:24:34,159
we had to flag those things up that

681
00:24:39,669 --> 00:24:37,840
these these uh experiences are

682
00:24:41,430 --> 00:24:39,679
quite concerned about our participants

683
00:24:43,269 --> 00:24:41,440
you know because they're quite immersive

684
00:24:46,149 --> 00:24:43,279
and we had to ensure that somebody

685
00:24:48,070 --> 00:24:46,159
stayed with the with the vr participant

686
00:24:49,590 --> 00:24:48,080
all the time as i say for health and

687
00:24:50,870 --> 00:24:49,600
safety because they tend to move about a

688
00:24:52,870 --> 00:24:50,880
bit you've got to have this sort of

689
00:24:54,230 --> 00:24:52,880
stable frame to them for them to hold on

690
00:24:56,630 --> 00:24:54,240
to

691
00:24:58,390 --> 00:24:56,640
um so other things we can think about is

692
00:25:00,310 --> 00:24:58,400
you know do we have too many too few

693
00:25:02,470 --> 00:25:00,320
trials i mean it's not many trials at

694
00:25:04,630 --> 00:25:02,480
all uh you know five trials per

695
00:25:07,269 --> 00:25:04,640
participant and in fact i was looking at

696
00:25:09,909 --> 00:25:07,279
the most recent hot off the press not

697
00:25:12,870 --> 00:25:09,919
quite still under review uh analysis by

698
00:25:15,830 --> 00:25:12,880
patricio uh and they argue that you know

699
00:25:18,310 --> 00:25:15,840
you'd need about 320 trials per study

700
00:25:20,549 --> 00:25:18,320
unless you selectively recruit your

701
00:25:22,630 --> 00:25:20,559
participants in which case you may be

702
00:25:24,710 --> 00:25:22,640
able to reduce that down to about 50

703
00:25:26,070 --> 00:25:24,720
trials so you know that would be an

704
00:25:27,350 --> 00:25:26,080
interesting idea maybe in the future

705
00:25:29,350 --> 00:25:27,360
what we do is we go back and we

706
00:25:31,590 --> 00:25:29,360
selectively recruit you know run a sort

707
00:25:34,149 --> 00:25:31,600
of pilot selectively recruit those who

708
00:25:37,590 --> 00:25:34,159
seem to do well and then you know run a

709
00:25:39,750 --> 00:25:37,600
much more robust sort of 50 trial study

710
00:25:43,669 --> 00:25:39,760
maybe we need more time for receivers to

711
00:25:45,190 --> 00:25:43,679
relax and maybe even adhere more closely

712
00:25:47,269 --> 00:25:45,200
for the receiver to the gansfeld

713
00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:47,279
paradigm uh one of the things i've

714
00:25:51,110 --> 00:25:48,720
talked with uh colleague up at

715
00:25:54,310 --> 00:25:51,120
northampton cal cooper about because

716
00:25:56,710 --> 00:25:54,320
they have taken delivery of these

717
00:25:59,590 --> 00:25:56,720
sensory isolation tanks

718
00:26:01,269 --> 00:25:59,600
floatation tanks uh and so one of my

719
00:26:03,669 --> 00:26:01,279
hopes is that you know i could imagine a

720
00:26:05,909 --> 00:26:03,679
situation whereby we've got a sender

721
00:26:08,870 --> 00:26:05,919
down here in canterbury with the vr kit

722
00:26:11,029 --> 00:26:08,880
on and a receiver up in northampton you

723
00:26:12,470 --> 00:26:11,039
know in the sensory isolation tank

724
00:26:14,950 --> 00:26:12,480
and you know maybe we could setting up

725
00:26:16,950 --> 00:26:14,960
that way so you know as well i mean that

726
00:26:19,190 --> 00:26:16,960
raises issues of its of its own of

727
00:26:21,269 --> 00:26:19,200
course because it's very unlikely that

728
00:26:23,510 --> 00:26:21,279
we're going to be able to recruit

729
00:26:26,149 --> 00:26:23,520
pairs of individuals to do that so there

730
00:26:29,190 --> 00:26:26,159
might be a trade-off in terms of you

731
00:26:31,430 --> 00:26:29,200
know how well we can match those up

732
00:26:33,029 --> 00:26:31,440
and you know the measure of success i

733
00:26:35,190 --> 00:26:33,039
talked a little bit about that so you

734
00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:35,200
know initially i just thought we'd focus

735
00:26:39,510 --> 00:26:37,200
on hit rates but when we went back and

736
00:26:41,430 --> 00:26:39,520
and looked again in a slightly more

737
00:26:43,510 --> 00:26:41,440
um

738
00:26:45,190 --> 00:26:43,520
i think probably a slightly more

739
00:26:46,870 --> 00:26:45,200
uh open way

740
00:26:49,029 --> 00:26:46,880
but probably a slightly more honest way

741
00:26:51,269 --> 00:26:49,039
as well because

742
00:26:54,070 --> 00:26:51,279
i suppose it's an assumption

743
00:26:57,110 --> 00:26:54,080
that in telepathy

744
00:26:59,269 --> 00:26:57,120
well quote unquote you know telepathy if

745
00:27:00,070 --> 00:26:59,279
such a thing exists and if it works that

746
00:27:07,190 --> 00:27:00,080
the

747
00:27:08,390 --> 00:27:07,200
right target you know it's always 100

748
00:27:10,310 --> 00:27:08,400
whereas you know of course that's that's

749
00:27:13,510 --> 00:27:10,320
a bit of a nonsense it would make much

750
00:27:16,310 --> 00:27:13,520
more sense to have say six six options

751
00:27:18,389 --> 00:27:16,320
or six you know six target ops and then

752
00:27:20,710 --> 00:27:18,399
look at the top three and then make it

753
00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:20,720
run some sort of binomial because you

754
00:27:25,510 --> 00:27:23,360
know i think it's much more likely that

755
00:27:27,350 --> 00:27:25,520
you know the the the you know that that

756
00:27:28,870 --> 00:27:27,360
the target may be the first or the

757
00:27:30,230 --> 00:27:28,880
second or the third you know because

758
00:27:33,190 --> 00:27:30,240
it's not always going to be the case

759
00:27:35,350 --> 00:27:33,200
that person has to get the target 100

760
00:27:36,950 --> 00:27:35,360
so measure of success in terms of hit

761
00:27:39,190 --> 00:27:36,960
rates versus ranking that's definitely

762
00:27:41,269 --> 00:27:39,200
something we need to rethink as well

763
00:27:42,950 --> 00:27:41,279
okay so that's probably enough of me i

764
00:27:44,549 --> 00:27:42,960
just want to say thanks to tom and

765
00:27:46,950 --> 00:27:44,559
thanks to eric for helping out with this

766
00:27:49,750 --> 00:27:46,960
a special thanks to mark and richard our

767
00:27:52,070 --> 00:27:49,760
tech guys here at canterbury who uh what

768
00:27:55,029 --> 00:27:52,080
encouraged me basically to utilize this

769
00:27:57,590 --> 00:27:55,039
kit and help me set the whole thing up

770
00:28:00,149 --> 00:27:57,600
and it was very logistically long-winded

771
00:28:02,389 --> 00:28:00,159
if i'm honest um it's uh

772
00:28:04,710 --> 00:28:02,399
it's something i would like to continue

773
00:28:07,750 --> 00:28:04,720
but it's a challenge

774
00:28:08,950 --> 00:28:07,760
like like so much of parapsychological

775
00:28:11,110 --> 00:28:08,960
research

776
00:28:14,149 --> 00:28:11,120
uh i see three raised hands already so

777
00:28:16,549 --> 00:28:14,159
let's see who we got here

778
00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:16,559
um i'm going to start with uh margaret

779
00:28:27,669 --> 00:28:23,990
can you hear me

780
00:28:29,750 --> 00:28:27,679
yes okay good um yeah i was curious um i

781
00:28:31,590 --> 00:28:29,760
i've been in groups where we do guided

782
00:28:34,149 --> 00:28:31,600
meditation and that can really bring

783
00:28:36,230 --> 00:28:34,159
people down and they can sink and then

784
00:28:38,630 --> 00:28:36,240
images can start rising up does anyone

785
00:28:42,789 --> 00:28:38,640
use that sort of technique for bringing

786
00:28:45,510 --> 00:28:42,799
people deep in and then testing pairs or

787
00:28:48,549 --> 00:28:45,520
or is that in the ganzfeld

788
00:28:50,950 --> 00:28:48,559
um not that i i mean certainly i know

789
00:28:52,870 --> 00:28:50,960
dean radian has done a lot of work with

790
00:28:55,750 --> 00:28:52,880
people who meditate but not necessarily

791
00:28:58,389 --> 00:28:55,760
in to these studies but i know that um

792
00:29:01,430 --> 00:28:58,399
meditators generally you know have this

793
00:29:03,110 --> 00:29:01,440
you know very very focused ability uh to

794
00:29:05,750 --> 00:29:03,120
attend to information that's that's you

795
00:29:07,830 --> 00:29:05,760
know that's a given um but there's i'm

796
00:29:10,149 --> 00:29:07,840
not sure there's much evidence there

797
00:29:11,750 --> 00:29:10,159
i'm not you know that it would it may

798
00:29:12,630 --> 00:29:11,760
have a benefit but

799
00:29:14,630 --> 00:29:12,640
i mean

800
00:29:16,389 --> 00:29:14,640
the honest answer is that's an empirical

801
00:29:19,110 --> 00:29:16,399
question and i would love you know if i

802
00:29:21,190 --> 00:29:19,120
could just get hold of i know 30

803
00:29:23,990 --> 00:29:21,200
pairs of meditators then i'd happily

804
00:29:24,710 --> 00:29:24,000
test them um yeah at the moment

805
00:29:28,470 --> 00:29:24,720
no

806
00:29:30,630 --> 00:29:28,480
i think bill benson will understand this

807
00:29:33,029 --> 00:29:30,640
one um

808
00:29:35,029 --> 00:29:33,039
the telepathy experiments

809
00:29:36,710 --> 00:29:35,039
do the participants ever feel a need to

810
00:29:38,470 --> 00:29:36,720
transfer an image so if they're just

811
00:29:40,630 --> 00:29:38,480
arousing you know what i mean there's a

812
00:29:43,110 --> 00:29:40,640
lot of the the spontaneous there's a

813
00:29:44,470 --> 00:29:43,120
need the connection and so trying to

814
00:29:46,470 --> 00:29:44,480
design an experiment where there's a

815
00:29:47,430 --> 00:29:46,480
need to transfer you know what i'm

816
00:29:48,870 --> 00:29:47,440
saying

817
00:29:51,990 --> 00:29:48,880
yeah yeah that's a really interesting

818
00:29:54,549 --> 00:29:52,000
idea and you know and possibly

819
00:29:57,510 --> 00:29:54,559
you know maybe virtual reality is it

820
00:29:58,630 --> 00:29:57,520
might well provide a sing

821
00:30:01,110 --> 00:29:58,640
for that

822
00:30:03,430 --> 00:30:01,120
um as an aside let me just give you an

823
00:30:05,909 --> 00:30:03,440
example okay so in um a colleague of

824
00:30:07,590 --> 00:30:05,919
mine uh ross up at greenwich is doing

825
00:30:09,269 --> 00:30:07,600
work on scope aesthesia this is this

826
00:30:11,029 --> 00:30:09,279
idea that you can feel when people are

827
00:30:12,870 --> 00:30:11,039
staring at you

828
00:30:14,549 --> 00:30:12,880
and one of the one of the things that

829
00:30:17,029 --> 00:30:14,559
you know that plays into this is that

830
00:30:18,870 --> 00:30:17,039
sort of the the eq the validity of of

831
00:30:21,830 --> 00:30:18,880
the setting you know because when we do

832
00:30:24,389 --> 00:30:21,840
these things in the lab is it's not very

833
00:30:26,070 --> 00:30:24,399
um realistic you know putting people

834
00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:26,080
standing them in front of a well

835
00:30:30,630 --> 00:30:28,080
whatever you want to call it a one-way

836
00:30:32,149 --> 00:30:30,640
win you know and then having them just

837
00:30:34,070 --> 00:30:32,159
face away and then stare at them or

838
00:30:35,669 --> 00:30:34,080
something like that um

839
00:30:39,350 --> 00:30:35,679
you know and i know ross did some work

840
00:30:42,230 --> 00:30:39,360
where he literally filmed people as they

841
00:30:43,990 --> 00:30:42,240
walked down a sort of dark alley around

842
00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:44,000
at the back end of their university of

843
00:30:46,789 --> 00:30:45,520
niche and they found some really

844
00:30:48,950 --> 00:30:46,799
interesting effects because that's a

845
00:30:51,269 --> 00:30:48,960
sort of environment where if somebody

846
00:30:52,389 --> 00:30:51,279
were watching you you might be quite

847
00:30:54,870 --> 00:30:52,399
aware of it

848
00:30:56,789 --> 00:30:54,880
um now it's really it's a very very

849
00:30:58,630 --> 00:30:56,799
challenging situation because it raises

850
00:30:59,830 --> 00:30:58,640
lots of ethical issues and all that sort

851
00:31:01,669 --> 00:30:59,840
of stuff so

852
00:31:04,149 --> 00:31:01,679
i could imagine

853
00:31:05,590 --> 00:31:04,159
virtual reality would be a a really

854
00:31:08,870 --> 00:31:05,600
useful way

855
00:31:10,389 --> 00:31:08,880
of putting people in settings that were

856
00:31:12,070 --> 00:31:10,399
um i'm trying to i'm trying to think of

857
00:31:14,470 --> 00:31:12,080
a nice way of saying this it's sort of

858
00:31:15,669 --> 00:31:14,480
um you know whatever it might be scary

859
00:31:18,149 --> 00:31:15,679
or uh

860
00:31:20,070 --> 00:31:18,159
you know you might feel might think oh

861
00:31:22,549 --> 00:31:20,080
goodness me this noise is it's dark

862
00:31:23,830 --> 00:31:22,559
order but of course there's no no harm

863
00:31:25,509 --> 00:31:23,840
going to happen to the participants we

864
00:31:28,070 --> 00:31:25,519
have to be very careful of all that so i

865
00:31:30,149 --> 00:31:28,080
think virtual reality may be an option

866
00:31:32,470 --> 00:31:30,159
where we could explore some of these i

867
00:31:36,149 --> 00:31:32,480
mean at the at the moment it's a it's in

868
00:31:38,870 --> 00:31:36,159
its infancy and that's what i would say

869
00:31:40,310 --> 00:31:38,880
okay all right thank you

870
00:31:41,669 --> 00:31:40,320
thank you margaret

871
00:31:42,950 --> 00:31:41,679
all right we did have a couple more

872
00:31:44,950 --> 00:31:42,960
raised hands but i'm going to go to the

873
00:31:46,789 --> 00:31:44,960
q a box and we'll take we'll take a

874
00:31:49,029 --> 00:31:46,799
question from there uh something been

875
00:31:50,789 --> 00:31:49,039
upvoted and i do encourage everybody to

876
00:31:52,149 --> 00:31:50,799
go and look at the questions and and

877
00:31:52,950 --> 00:31:52,159
upvote the ones that want to be answered

878
00:31:55,029 --> 00:31:52,960
because i don't think we're gonna have

879
00:31:56,789 --> 00:31:55,039
time for all of them um but right now in

880
00:31:57,669 --> 00:31:56,799
the number one slot maryland schlitz

881
00:32:00,149 --> 00:31:57,679
asks

882
00:32:02,470 --> 00:32:00,159
a great study uh are you seeing any

883
00:32:05,350 --> 00:32:02,480
contamination in the imagery by seeing

884
00:32:07,990 --> 00:32:05,360
the beach scene as relaxation

885
00:32:10,310 --> 00:32:08,000
do they have images of beach

886
00:32:11,990 --> 00:32:10,320
no nobody reported that you know we

887
00:32:13,750 --> 00:32:12,000
didn't have anything with that

888
00:32:16,710 --> 00:32:13,760
not at all

889
00:32:20,470 --> 00:32:16,720
okay but that you know having said that

890
00:32:22,470 --> 00:32:20,480
um you know again sort of if we so uh

891
00:32:23,190 --> 00:32:22,480
it's a nice idea and you're going back

892
00:32:26,830 --> 00:32:23,200
to

893
00:32:29,990 --> 00:32:26,840
this may well be an artifact of how we

894
00:32:32,630 --> 00:32:30,000
um obtained responses which was you know

895
00:32:34,549 --> 00:32:32,640
the receiver would see five images you

896
00:32:36,630 --> 00:32:34,559
know and so in a way we could arrange

897
00:32:38,070 --> 00:32:36,640
what they were feeding back on so one of

898
00:32:39,909 --> 00:32:38,080
the things we thought about you know

899
00:32:41,590 --> 00:32:39,919
which would be nice going forwards is

900
00:32:43,110 --> 00:32:41,600
you could imagine rather than or you

901
00:32:45,110 --> 00:32:43,120
could do both you could uh have the

902
00:32:47,029 --> 00:32:45,120
receiver sit and then do the sort of

903
00:32:49,350 --> 00:32:47,039
mentation what's going through their

904
00:32:52,149 --> 00:32:49,360
head any images that come to mind

905
00:32:53,590 --> 00:32:52,159
and so on then show them the targets you

906
00:32:55,830 --> 00:32:53,600
know the target along with the decoys

907
00:32:57,990 --> 00:32:55,840
and they rank them so we might then

908
00:32:59,509 --> 00:32:58,000
maybe the beach might come out but you

909
00:33:01,830 --> 00:32:59,519
know that didn't happen this time but as

910
00:33:03,830 --> 00:33:01,840
i say maybe like an artifact of the sort

911
00:33:06,310 --> 00:33:03,840
of constrained way that the sort of

912
00:33:08,870 --> 00:33:06,320
forced recognition paradigm that was

913
00:33:16,470 --> 00:33:08,880
okay i'm going to pass the mic to ching

914
00:33:20,310 --> 00:33:18,470
okay where is my

915
00:33:23,029 --> 00:33:20,320
camera okay

916
00:33:25,029 --> 00:33:23,039
thank you so my question is that so in

917
00:33:25,990 --> 00:33:25,039
this um

918
00:33:27,509 --> 00:33:26,000
uh

919
00:33:30,470 --> 00:33:27,519
so tellingly

920
00:33:32,789 --> 00:33:30,480
experiment the the receiver is always

921
00:33:35,990 --> 00:33:32,799
almost often in putting in a sensory

922
00:33:38,549 --> 00:33:36,000
isolation so basically uh under the

923
00:33:40,870 --> 00:33:38,559
condition under a hypothesis that the

924
00:33:43,590 --> 00:33:40,880
receiver is going to pick up a signal

925
00:33:46,950 --> 00:33:43,600
out of a kind of very low noise so what

926
00:33:49,509 --> 00:33:46,960
if i'm just asking what if the receiver

927
00:33:51,990 --> 00:33:49,519
is also given a set of vr

928
00:33:54,950 --> 00:33:52,000
and so the sender has a vr receiver has

929
00:33:57,269 --> 00:33:54,960
a vr and then they though vrs they are

930
00:33:59,269 --> 00:33:57,279
playing absolutely we've already thought

931
00:34:00,950 --> 00:33:59,279
about that put them both in exactly the

932
00:34:03,029 --> 00:34:00,960
same environment i mean that would be i

933
00:34:04,470 --> 00:34:03,039
mean in fact there was a study done and

934
00:34:05,909 --> 00:34:04,480
i'm trying to i'm just going to dig out

935
00:34:07,669 --> 00:34:05,919
the reference for you

936
00:34:10,149 --> 00:34:07,679
i can remember it off the top of my head

937
00:34:12,149 --> 00:34:10,159
which i can't and

938
00:34:15,349 --> 00:34:12,159
i can't remember the guy's name

939
00:34:16,790 --> 00:34:15,359
but it was one study done where a group

940
00:34:19,030 --> 00:34:16,800
of researchers looked at this they

941
00:34:21,430 --> 00:34:19,040
didn't find an effect but they had they

942
00:34:22,470 --> 00:34:21,440
literally had a single trial um and it

943
00:34:23,909 --> 00:34:22,480
was you know i don't think it was very

944
00:34:26,149 --> 00:34:23,919
well designed so

945
00:34:28,470 --> 00:34:26,159
again i think that this is for me this

946
00:34:30,710 --> 00:34:28,480
was like a sort of exploratory idea you

947
00:34:32,470 --> 00:34:30,720
know or an exploration of

948
00:34:35,270 --> 00:34:32,480
is it you know is there any mileage in

949
00:34:37,190 --> 00:34:35,280
using vr in this sort of area i think

950
00:34:39,190 --> 00:34:37,200
there is and i you know what i'd love to

951
00:34:41,829 --> 00:34:39,200
have is you know more kits with you know

952
00:34:43,750 --> 00:34:41,839
better quality images maybe ones that we

953
00:34:46,470 --> 00:34:43,760
could create ourselves but absolutely i

954
00:34:48,790 --> 00:34:46,480
think that that you know offers a really

955
00:34:51,270 --> 00:34:48,800
interesting uh environment where you

956
00:34:53,909 --> 00:34:51,280
could put both sender and receiver in

957
00:34:55,669 --> 00:34:53,919
the same environment maybe have then

958
00:34:58,630 --> 00:34:55,679
have the sender you know pick up a

959
00:35:00,069 --> 00:34:58,640
virtual object and see if the receiver

960
00:35:01,589 --> 00:35:00,079
goes to the same op you know something

961
00:35:02,870 --> 00:35:01,599
like that you measure it in different

962
00:35:04,470 --> 00:35:02,880
ways there are lots of things you can do

963
00:35:06,230 --> 00:35:04,480
there but yeah that would be a fun that

964
00:35:08,710 --> 00:35:06,240
would definitely be a fun project

965
00:35:10,710 --> 00:35:08,720
anybody out there with vast sums of

966
00:35:14,390 --> 00:35:10,720
money who would like to fund

967
00:35:15,990 --> 00:35:14,400
parapsychical research just let me know

968
00:35:18,870 --> 00:35:16,000
but yes that's a great question thank

969
00:35:19,910 --> 00:35:18,880
you very much thank you

970
00:35:21,750 --> 00:35:19,920
okay

971
00:35:23,030 --> 00:35:21,760
um i'm gonna take another one from the q

972
00:35:24,150 --> 00:35:23,040
a

973
00:35:26,470 --> 00:35:24,160
uh

974
00:35:29,510 --> 00:35:26,480
thank you for your upvotes everyone

975
00:35:30,470 --> 00:35:29,520
the next uh most popular question

976
00:35:33,990 --> 00:35:30,480
um

977
00:35:36,710 --> 00:35:34,000
york is asking for clarification on how

978
00:35:39,030 --> 00:35:36,720
you identify the target and a sequence

979
00:35:42,150 --> 00:35:39,040
of five target clips

980
00:35:43,109 --> 00:35:42,160
random well it's a combination as i said

981
00:35:44,950 --> 00:35:43,119
it's

982
00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:44,960
well pseudo random i suppose to some

983
00:35:49,589 --> 00:35:47,280
extent it was it was driven by

984
00:35:52,230 --> 00:35:49,599
how how easy or difficult it was to find

985
00:35:55,510 --> 00:35:52,240
a vr clip so so

986
00:35:56,950 --> 00:35:55,520
taking a step back we had sets of

987
00:35:58,390 --> 00:35:56,960
five images

988
00:35:59,910 --> 00:35:58,400
those images were matched to evidence

989
00:36:01,670 --> 00:35:59,920
and arousal according to the iaps

990
00:36:03,670 --> 00:36:01,680
database so according to them they're

991
00:36:06,230 --> 00:36:03,680
all sort of um

992
00:36:08,870 --> 00:36:06,240
you know similarly arousing and

993
00:36:10,470 --> 00:36:08,880
similarly positive now and i hold my

994
00:36:14,150 --> 00:36:10,480
hands up and say you know of course

995
00:36:17,430 --> 00:36:14,160
that's uh static images there is no uh

996
00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:17,440
database of virtual reality clips

997
00:36:21,270 --> 00:36:19,440
yet maybe that's something that you know

998
00:36:23,430 --> 00:36:21,280
if somebody with vast

999
00:36:25,750 --> 00:36:23,440
resources and and time could do but i

1000
00:36:26,550 --> 00:36:25,760
mean that you know this is because over

1001
00:36:29,510 --> 00:36:26,560
time

1002
00:36:31,270 --> 00:36:29,520
researchers um often utilize these sort

1003
00:36:32,790 --> 00:36:31,280
of standardized databases of words and

1004
00:36:36,230 --> 00:36:32,800
the images because they're really really

1005
00:36:39,109 --> 00:36:36,240
useful um so there was no sort of go-to

1006
00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:39,119
uh set of images so we use those images

1007
00:36:43,750 --> 00:36:41,680
those those static images as a guide and

1008
00:36:47,670 --> 00:36:43,760
then it was driven mostly by whether we

1009
00:36:49,990 --> 00:36:47,680
could get a vr clip of one of those

1010
00:36:52,150 --> 00:36:50,000
since we're talking about uh images and

1011
00:36:54,470 --> 00:36:52,160
another question comes from mark urban

1012
00:36:56,550 --> 00:36:54,480
lorraine uh he's asking are the five

1013
00:36:57,990 --> 00:36:56,560
images presented to the receiver all on

1014
00:36:59,829 --> 00:36:58,000
the screen at the same time or

1015
00:37:01,510 --> 00:36:59,839
sequentially all on the screen at the

1016
00:37:03,109 --> 00:37:01,520
same time so it literally has owed it

1017
00:37:04,550 --> 00:37:03,119
you see that that five and then the

1018
00:37:06,550 --> 00:37:04,560
little spaces underneath and they're

1019
00:37:08,950 --> 00:37:06,560
supposed to plug in one two three four

1020
00:37:11,190 --> 00:37:08,960
five that's it they just rank them

1021
00:37:13,670 --> 00:37:11,200
according to you know how they

1022
00:37:15,990 --> 00:37:13,680
one is the the uh experience that they

1023
00:37:18,310 --> 00:37:16,000
think their partner just had five least

1024
00:37:25,750 --> 00:37:18,320
likely

1025
00:37:29,270 --> 00:37:26,710
hey

1026
00:37:31,670 --> 00:37:29,280
super interesting stuff i really really

1027
00:37:35,349 --> 00:37:31,680
want to talk um

1028
00:37:36,630 --> 00:37:35,359
with respect to the high arousal images

1029
00:37:39,910 --> 00:37:36,640
um

1030
00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:39,920
i'm wondering if the immersion

1031
00:37:44,470 --> 00:37:42,720
uh that you're doing on the sender

1032
00:37:46,630 --> 00:37:44,480
could almost be counterproductive in

1033
00:37:50,630 --> 00:37:46,640
some sense right because

1034
00:37:52,069 --> 00:37:50,640
the arousal i could see in missing the

1035
00:37:54,710 --> 00:37:52,079
receiver

1036
00:37:56,390 --> 00:37:54,720
right if you have a loved one that is

1037
00:37:58,630 --> 00:37:56,400
going through some kind of trauma you

1038
00:37:59,990 --> 00:37:58,640
might pick up on that arousal

1039
00:38:02,069 --> 00:38:00,000
but at the same time you could be

1040
00:38:04,950 --> 00:38:02,079
undermining the fidelity

1041
00:38:06,790 --> 00:38:04,960
of the details and

1042
00:38:09,270 --> 00:38:06,800
the reason i say that is from the

1043
00:38:11,910 --> 00:38:09,280
perspective of the sender um you're

1044
00:38:13,750 --> 00:38:11,920
encouraging like a visceral

1045
00:38:15,510 --> 00:38:13,760
uh kind of experience with these high

1046
00:38:18,550 --> 00:38:15,520
arousal images

1047
00:38:21,030 --> 00:38:18,560
and since they're so engrossed in the uh

1048
00:38:22,950 --> 00:38:21,040
activity itself they may be

1049
00:38:24,390 --> 00:38:22,960
sufficiently dedicated to the sending

1050
00:38:27,030 --> 00:38:24,400
process

1051
00:38:28,630 --> 00:38:27,040
right absolutely absolutely

1052
00:38:30,950 --> 00:38:28,640
so i mean that was one of the reasons

1053
00:38:33,190 --> 00:38:30,960
why we had them swap an item at the

1054
00:38:35,270 --> 00:38:33,200
outset and had you know when the sender

1055
00:38:36,550 --> 00:38:35,280
was you know in the vr they would hold

1056
00:38:37,990 --> 00:38:36,560
this up

1057
00:38:40,390 --> 00:38:38,000
and we'd you know sort of emphasize to

1058
00:38:42,550 --> 00:38:40,400
try and remember their partner because

1059
00:38:44,069 --> 00:38:42,560
you know we recognize that to some

1060
00:38:47,030 --> 00:38:44,079
extent when you put someone in this

1061
00:38:48,950 --> 00:38:47,040
situation it's it's distracting

1062
00:38:50,390 --> 00:38:48,960
and immersive and they could completely

1063
00:38:52,390 --> 00:38:50,400
forget about you know all the things

1064
00:38:55,430 --> 00:38:52,400
we've just asked them to do and and just

1065
00:38:57,030 --> 00:38:55,440
go wow this is fun and

1066
00:38:59,030 --> 00:38:57,040
you know which is great but it's got you

1067
00:39:00,630 --> 00:38:59,040
know it doesn't really help us um and it

1068
00:39:03,349 --> 00:39:00,640
may well be that

1069
00:39:06,230 --> 00:39:03,359
um that what we might need to do is run

1070
00:39:08,310 --> 00:39:06,240
through some sort of like a like a

1071
00:39:10,790 --> 00:39:08,320
like a not an equation process but a

1072
00:39:12,790 --> 00:39:10,800
sort of familiarization process so you

1073
00:39:15,030 --> 00:39:12,800
know the person because the other thing

1074
00:39:16,790 --> 00:39:15,040
is this this um the oculus when you wear

1075
00:39:18,230 --> 00:39:16,800
it it's actually quite heavy i mean

1076
00:39:20,630 --> 00:39:18,240
you've got these straps on the head and

1077
00:39:25,190 --> 00:39:20,640
stuff um but it gets quite warm and it's

1078
00:39:27,750 --> 00:39:25,200
quite heavy so it's not ideal um by any

1079
00:39:29,109 --> 00:39:27,760
stretch uh but i think there are ways

1080
00:39:32,390 --> 00:39:29,119
that we can sort of address some of

1081
00:39:35,270 --> 00:39:32,400
those issues to try and bring them back

1082
00:39:37,430 --> 00:39:35,280
i'm almost wondering if you can you

1083
00:39:39,750 --> 00:39:37,440
really leverage the immersive experience

1084
00:39:42,950 --> 00:39:39,760
to enhance the relaxation

1085
00:39:45,030 --> 00:39:42,960
and get people in in a in a fine where

1086
00:39:46,550 --> 00:39:45,040
they might be more optimal for sending

1087
00:39:49,349 --> 00:39:46,560
and then you can even have like a

1088
00:39:50,950 --> 00:39:49,359
floating still image inside of that

1089
00:39:52,310 --> 00:39:50,960
beach scene for example

1090
00:39:53,990 --> 00:39:52,320
and have them send it and not

1091
00:39:56,069 --> 00:39:54,000
necessarily have to be a high arousal

1092
00:39:58,150 --> 00:39:56,079
image just that you're you're

1093
00:40:00,230 --> 00:39:58,160
encouraging the relaxation process that

1094
00:40:02,230 --> 00:40:00,240
might be conducive for a sender as

1095
00:40:05,270 --> 00:40:02,240
opposed to the exhilaration process that

1096
00:40:07,270 --> 00:40:05,280
might be more conducive for the receiver

1097
00:40:09,109 --> 00:40:07,280
that may well be i mean there's lots

1098
00:40:11,910 --> 00:40:09,119
that we could explore the reason we

1099
00:40:14,069 --> 00:40:11,920
chose high arousal sort of positive

1100
00:40:15,270 --> 00:40:14,079
valence images is because there's quite

1101
00:40:17,109 --> 00:40:15,280
a bit of research in the literature

1102
00:40:20,309 --> 00:40:17,119
showing saying that you know arousing

1103
00:40:22,710 --> 00:40:20,319
images that are if you like not static

1104
00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:22,720
your multi-sensory targets tend to be

1105
00:40:27,510 --> 00:40:25,040
better or people tend to do better with

1106
00:40:28,950 --> 00:40:27,520
these uh yes that was basically it i

1107
00:40:31,510 --> 00:40:28,960
mean

1108
00:40:33,030 --> 00:40:31,520
it's not it's not by any stretch um like

1109
00:40:34,870 --> 00:40:33,040
the end i would you know as i say i

1110
00:40:36,950 --> 00:40:34,880
think i consider this to be sort of the

1111
00:40:39,430 --> 00:40:36,960
beginning i think it's uh you know this

1112
00:40:40,390 --> 00:40:39,440
seems to be suggesting that it could be

1113
00:40:42,470 --> 00:40:40,400
useful

1114
00:40:44,069 --> 00:40:42,480
so let's see where we can take i think

1115
00:40:48,390 --> 00:40:44,079
there's you know really can be taken in

1116
00:40:53,589 --> 00:40:51,109
okay so i've got

1117
00:40:56,470 --> 00:40:53,599
um a lot of questions and comments from

1118
00:40:58,470 --> 00:40:56,480
marilyn flitz and uh she seems to be

1119
00:41:01,030 --> 00:40:58,480
having trouble with the ray's hand

1120
00:41:02,470 --> 00:41:01,040
feature she's having some tech issues so

1121
00:41:04,710 --> 00:41:02,480
we're gonna go through some of her

1122
00:41:07,589 --> 00:41:04,720
questions and comments i'll have to be

1123
00:41:09,430 --> 00:41:07,599
her proxy so uh the first thing uh she

1124
00:41:12,309 --> 00:41:09,440
says that she has a vr setup and would

1125
00:41:14,630 --> 00:41:12,319
love to explore some collaborations

1126
00:41:17,750 --> 00:41:14,640
okay um and

1127
00:41:18,630 --> 00:41:17,760
let's see uh as a couple of suggestions

1128
00:41:20,950 --> 00:41:18,640
um

1129
00:41:23,190 --> 00:41:20,960
she suggests using rating rather than

1130
00:41:24,550 --> 00:41:23,200
ranking for the judging

1131
00:41:26,790 --> 00:41:24,560
okay

1132
00:41:29,030 --> 00:41:26,800
um and suggests that you might not be

1133
00:41:30,790 --> 00:41:29,040
powered for significance instead perhaps

1134
00:41:33,990 --> 00:41:30,800
effect size would be a better way to

1135
00:41:38,069 --> 00:41:36,230
do you have any comment on that no i'm

1136
00:41:40,309 --> 00:41:38,079
happy to go with that

1137
00:41:42,069 --> 00:41:40,319
that's fine it makes sense to me i mean

1138
00:41:44,710 --> 00:41:42,079
you know this was very much a pilot as

1139
00:41:46,790 --> 00:41:44,720
you know with 11 i'm surprised we found

1140
00:41:50,150 --> 00:41:46,800
we found with 11 pairs

1141
00:41:51,829 --> 00:41:50,160
um you know i would much prefer

1142
00:41:53,430 --> 00:41:51,839
you know a more robust study but the

1143
00:41:54,309 --> 00:41:53,440
reality is you know these things it's a

1144
00:41:58,230 --> 00:41:54,319
step

1145
00:42:00,150 --> 00:41:58,240
sense you know you i run this we do this

1146
00:42:02,309 --> 00:42:00,160
first um the

1147
00:42:03,430 --> 00:42:02,319
part of the channel is i'm not sure you

1148
00:42:04,870 --> 00:42:03,440
know obviously if this doesn't make

1149
00:42:06,630 --> 00:42:04,880
sense then you know i'll explain it but

1150
00:42:08,150 --> 00:42:06,640
part of the rationale is us as

1151
00:42:11,349 --> 00:42:08,160
researchers are often trying to get

1152
00:42:13,670 --> 00:42:11,359
funding to run research projects but

1153
00:42:16,230 --> 00:42:13,680
often we have to show a sort of proof of

1154
00:42:18,710 --> 00:42:16,240
concept before we can apply for that

1155
00:42:20,309 --> 00:42:18,720
fund that was really the basis of this

1156
00:42:22,390 --> 00:42:20,319
study it's basically saying i think that

1157
00:42:24,309 --> 00:42:22,400
there's mileage here now what we can try

1158
00:42:26,710 --> 00:42:24,319
and do is apply for some funding to

1159
00:42:28,230 --> 00:42:26,720
different organizations and also to the

1160
00:42:30,150 --> 00:42:28,240
university itself and say you know

1161
00:42:32,390 --> 00:42:30,160
please give us a virtual reality camera

1162
00:42:34,390 --> 00:42:32,400
and other kit etc so you know that's

1163
00:42:36,150 --> 00:42:34,400
that was part of the deal but absolutely

1164
00:42:37,910 --> 00:42:36,160
i mean there's lots of there are you

1165
00:42:39,510 --> 00:42:37,920
know was it there's always more

1166
00:42:41,190 --> 00:42:39,520
questions than answers but you know i

1167
00:42:43,589 --> 00:42:41,200
think this is i think it's also quite a

1168
00:42:45,670 --> 00:42:43,599
fun and interesting area

1169
00:42:49,750 --> 00:42:45,680
speaking of more questions we we have a

1170
00:42:55,109 --> 00:42:52,550
i'm going to pass the mic to carl um i

1171
00:42:58,069 --> 00:42:55,119
hope i said his last name right

1172
00:43:00,550 --> 00:42:58,079
yeah hello david i just thought i'd um

1173
00:43:03,030 --> 00:43:00,560
offer a little commentary about your use

1174
00:43:04,870 --> 00:43:03,040
of the potential use of a float tank

1175
00:43:06,069 --> 00:43:04,880
i went in 30 years ago and all i can

1176
00:43:07,190 --> 00:43:06,079
tell you is

1177
00:43:08,790 --> 00:43:07,200
i didn't

1178
00:43:10,470 --> 00:43:08,800
nothing really happened when i was there

1179
00:43:12,230 --> 00:43:10,480
but when i walked out it felt like

1180
00:43:15,430 --> 00:43:12,240
gravity had been dialed back and i just

1181
00:43:18,069 --> 00:43:15,440
felt like so clean and a couple

1182
00:43:20,309 --> 00:43:18,079
meetings ago someone was saying i think

1183
00:43:22,309 --> 00:43:20,319
it was paul smith about so that the

1184
00:43:23,990 --> 00:43:22,319
cleanest recipient signals were ones

1185
00:43:26,150 --> 00:43:24,000
found when people were

1186
00:43:27,670 --> 00:43:26,160
hundreds of feet under under water in a

1187
00:43:30,390 --> 00:43:27,680
submarine

1188
00:43:32,309 --> 00:43:30,400
so um so i'd encourage you to play with

1189
00:43:36,150 --> 00:43:32,319
that

1190
00:43:38,150 --> 00:43:36,160
anybody in a submarine i mean one of the

1191
00:43:41,750 --> 00:43:38,160
things i'd ask those is your

1192
00:43:43,990 --> 00:43:41,760
experiences in the isolation um tank uh

1193
00:43:46,150 --> 00:43:44,000
was that like was it just one

1194
00:43:48,230 --> 00:43:46,160
uh one-off or is it something that you

1195
00:43:49,829 --> 00:43:48,240
regularly no it was a one-off and i

1196
00:43:51,430 --> 00:43:49,839
didn't really have the knowledge 30

1197
00:43:53,190 --> 00:43:51,440
years ago that i have today

1198
00:43:55,030 --> 00:43:53,200
and the other thing is it was sort of

1199
00:43:58,150 --> 00:43:55,040
like a giant eggshell

1200
00:43:59,670 --> 00:43:58,160
with a gull wing door and in the top of

1201
00:44:02,150 --> 00:43:59,680
it was a um

1202
00:44:04,069 --> 00:44:02,160
was a tv screen

1203
00:44:06,710 --> 00:44:04,079
i mean so that that you could use that

1204
00:44:08,950 --> 00:44:06,720
as option and the idea was they should

1205
00:44:11,430 --> 00:44:08,960
like you were in star wars start star

1206
00:44:13,510 --> 00:44:11,440
trek going warp 10 and the stars were

1207
00:44:14,870 --> 00:44:13,520
going by and you could just kind of like

1208
00:44:17,270 --> 00:44:14,880
doze off

1209
00:44:18,950 --> 00:44:17,280
and so it you know

1210
00:44:20,390 --> 00:44:18,960
while it was happening i just didn't

1211
00:44:23,109 --> 00:44:20,400
really feel anything was really

1212
00:44:24,550 --> 00:44:23,119
happening but when i got out it was like

1213
00:44:26,630 --> 00:44:24,560
wow what just happened to me and it

1214
00:44:27,670 --> 00:44:26,640
wasn't like anything magical it's just i

1215
00:44:30,309 --> 00:44:27,680
felt like

1216
00:44:32,550 --> 00:44:30,319
so clean it was just like i thought whoa

1217
00:44:34,710 --> 00:44:32,560
this is crazy and i didn't really

1218
00:44:37,190 --> 00:44:34,720
have anything to go on right it was kind

1219
00:44:39,030 --> 00:44:37,200
of a gift from a friend so um

1220
00:44:40,790 --> 00:44:39,040
so it just kind of blew me so and then

1221
00:44:43,670 --> 00:44:40,800
if you start thinking about it you're

1222
00:44:45,349 --> 00:44:43,680
sitting in 600 pounds of epsom salts

1223
00:44:47,910 --> 00:44:45,359
does that have something to do with

1224
00:44:50,309 --> 00:44:47,920
anything who knows but

1225
00:44:52,630 --> 00:44:50,319
you know so i just think you and you get

1226
00:44:55,430 --> 00:44:52,640
people in a very very relaxed state and

1227
00:44:57,430 --> 00:44:55,440
my suspicion is running isolation and

1228
00:45:00,790 --> 00:44:57,440
having thought about it it's just

1229
00:45:02,630 --> 00:45:00,800
reduced activity you know so it's not so

1230
00:45:04,150 --> 00:45:02,640
much you're isolated but just

1231
00:45:06,309 --> 00:45:04,160
nothing's going on in your mind is

1232
00:45:08,069 --> 00:45:06,319
idling when it's normally

1233
00:45:10,950 --> 00:45:08,079
running doing who knows what with all

1234
00:45:14,069 --> 00:45:10,960
kinds of distractions so that's my

1235
00:45:16,950 --> 00:45:14,079
suspicions and i mean in a way

1236
00:45:19,109 --> 00:45:16,960
that's uh again uh it's it's just it's

1237
00:45:21,750 --> 00:45:19,119
an empirical question

1238
00:45:24,069 --> 00:45:21,760
take you know keeping a sender in the vr

1239
00:45:25,990 --> 00:45:24,079
environment and having a receiver you

1240
00:45:28,870 --> 00:45:26,000
could have a receiver in a sort of

1241
00:45:31,109 --> 00:45:28,880
the pink noise and etc

1242
00:45:33,109 --> 00:45:31,119
or you could put them in you know an

1243
00:45:34,710 --> 00:45:33,119
isolation tank i mean the question is

1244
00:45:36,630 --> 00:45:34,720
you know which of these is better i mean

1245
00:45:38,150 --> 00:45:36,640
these for me these are empirical

1246
00:45:41,589 --> 00:45:38,160
questions i i you know i want to know

1247
00:45:45,270 --> 00:45:42,630
okay

1248
00:45:47,829 --> 00:45:45,280
so hold on a second

1249
00:45:49,430 --> 00:45:47,839
um philip brown has a question at the

1250
00:45:50,950 --> 00:45:49,440
top but i'm actually going to hand him

1251
00:45:54,870 --> 00:45:50,960
the mic in the moment but in the

1252
00:45:57,430 --> 00:45:54,880
meantime there's a question from bro

1253
00:46:00,230 --> 00:45:57,440
she says roller coaster may be fun and

1254
00:46:02,390 --> 00:46:00,240
arousing or it might be traumatizing any

1255
00:46:04,710 --> 00:46:02,400
accounting for the difference

1256
00:46:06,950 --> 00:46:04,720
it's an interesting question i mean we

1257
00:46:09,270 --> 00:46:06,960
we had to flag up to our participants at

1258
00:46:11,750 --> 00:46:09,280
the outset that these were what we

1259
00:46:13,750 --> 00:46:11,760
considered to be adrenaline inducing

1260
00:46:14,950 --> 00:46:13,760
experiences

1261
00:46:16,790 --> 00:46:14,960
but we couldn't show them the

1262
00:46:18,309 --> 00:46:16,800
experiences beforehand because otherwise

1263
00:46:20,710 --> 00:46:18,319
you know then you know then we sort of

1264
00:46:22,790 --> 00:46:20,720
ruin the the process but um you know

1265
00:46:24,950 --> 00:46:22,800
that's i mean that's the true because

1266
00:46:26,630 --> 00:46:24,960
you know we did say you know for example

1267
00:46:29,430 --> 00:46:26,640
it involved you know jumping out of an

1268
00:46:30,950 --> 00:46:29,440
airplane or standing on the edge or you

1269
00:46:33,190 --> 00:46:30,960
know climbing up a very tall building so

1270
00:46:35,030 --> 00:46:33,200
if you're afraid of heights or if you're

1271
00:46:37,030 --> 00:46:35,040
um you know if you have if these are

1272
00:46:38,870 --> 00:46:37,040
issues for you then don't participate

1273
00:46:40,470 --> 00:46:38,880
you know so we did sort of flag that up

1274
00:46:41,750 --> 00:46:40,480
and part of our ethics was that we had

1275
00:46:43,349 --> 00:46:41,760
to make that very very clear at the

1276
00:46:44,710 --> 00:46:43,359
outset that it could be

1277
00:46:46,870 --> 00:46:44,720
quite now because there's one i think

1278
00:46:48,550 --> 00:46:46,880
there's a space walk which is if you

1279
00:46:50,069 --> 00:46:48,560
suffer from vertigo you might that might

1280
00:46:51,109 --> 00:46:50,079
be problematic

1281
00:46:53,190 --> 00:46:51,119
um

1282
00:46:54,550 --> 00:46:53,200
yeah it's a challenge i think i mean

1283
00:46:56,150 --> 00:46:54,560
it's an interesting idea i mean it's

1284
00:46:57,829 --> 00:46:56,160
part of my mind is just going down this

1285
00:47:00,150 --> 00:46:57,839
avenue well

1286
00:47:03,670 --> 00:47:00,160
you could imagine i quite like the idea

1287
00:47:06,309 --> 00:47:03,680
of uh of setting people up um

1288
00:47:08,230 --> 00:47:06,319
you know so you could have say pairs

1289
00:47:10,870 --> 00:47:08,240
of of people who suffer from say

1290
00:47:12,870 --> 00:47:10,880
arachnophobia and then you know expose

1291
00:47:14,950 --> 00:47:12,880
one of them to spiders and see if the

1292
00:47:16,710 --> 00:47:14,960
other one responds or something i mean

1293
00:47:19,430 --> 00:47:16,720
again you have to be very cautious how

1294
00:47:21,910 --> 00:47:19,440
you do that ethically but once again my

1295
00:47:22,950 --> 00:47:21,920
point would be that you know vr allows

1296
00:47:24,950 --> 00:47:22,960
you to

1297
00:47:26,150 --> 00:47:24,960
sort of do this in a safe environment

1298
00:47:27,430 --> 00:47:26,160
and you have to be careful quite how

1299
00:47:29,349 --> 00:47:27,440
much you tell your participants you

1300
00:47:31,109 --> 00:47:29,359
don't prime them bias them or whatever

1301
00:47:33,270 --> 00:47:31,119
you know but at the same time you can't

1302
00:47:34,950 --> 00:47:33,280
just sort of uh you know

1303
00:47:37,510 --> 00:47:34,960
shock them

1304
00:47:39,349 --> 00:47:37,520
having a heart attacks but i think it's

1305
00:47:40,870 --> 00:47:39,359
real scope i really do i think there's

1306
00:47:50,069 --> 00:47:40,880
real scope

1307
00:47:53,990 --> 00:47:51,030
hello

1308
00:47:55,670 --> 00:47:54,000
philip good evening hi david thank you

1309
00:47:57,670 --> 00:47:55,680
for your presentation

1310
00:48:00,230 --> 00:47:57,680
you're very welcome

1311
00:48:02,230 --> 00:48:00,240
the comment that i have is that example

1312
00:48:03,109 --> 00:48:02,240
of five images that you gave us there

1313
00:48:05,910 --> 00:48:03,119
was

1314
00:48:10,150 --> 00:48:05,920
an image of somebody falling off a cliff

1315
00:48:12,790 --> 00:48:10,160
it was a roller coaster uh the ski slope

1316
00:48:14,950 --> 00:48:12,800
and the water slide and i don't remember

1317
00:48:17,270 --> 00:48:14,960
the fifth one but hot air ballooning but

1318
00:48:19,430 --> 00:48:17,280
yeah that's it okay well at least four

1319
00:48:21,990 --> 00:48:19,440
of those images have the sensation of

1320
00:48:24,790 --> 00:48:22,950
so

1321
00:48:27,430 --> 00:48:24,800
or at least i think i think that would

1322
00:48:29,270 --> 00:48:27,440
be the dominant sensation

1323
00:48:30,470 --> 00:48:29,280
of falling so

1324
00:48:33,109 --> 00:48:30,480
i think

1325
00:48:34,549 --> 00:48:33,119
if the sender transmitted the sensation

1326
00:48:38,230 --> 00:48:34,559
falling it would be hard for the

1327
00:48:41,190 --> 00:48:38,240
receiver to decide which of those four

1328
00:48:43,670 --> 00:48:41,200
images would be the correct one

1329
00:48:45,109 --> 00:48:43,680
so i mean that was just one example that

1330
00:48:46,870 --> 00:48:45,119
that you gave us

1331
00:48:48,470 --> 00:48:46,880
uh i don't know what what your other

1332
00:48:50,150 --> 00:48:48,480
examples were but

1333
00:48:51,910 --> 00:48:50,160
i think they would have to be a

1334
00:48:53,829 --> 00:48:51,920
qualitative difference for example

1335
00:48:56,150 --> 00:48:53,839
kicking a ball or

1336
00:48:57,750 --> 00:48:56,160
being attacked by swimming bees or

1337
00:48:59,670 --> 00:48:57,760
things that are really different in a

1338
00:49:00,710 --> 00:48:59,680
qualitative sense that would be easier

1339
00:49:02,870 --> 00:49:00,720
for a

1340
00:49:05,750 --> 00:49:02,880
receiver know i mean that's it

1341
00:49:07,430 --> 00:49:05,760
i i i'm not sure because yes you know i

1342
00:49:09,190 --> 00:49:07,440
would just say that's an empirical

1343
00:49:11,030 --> 00:49:09,200
question you know there are two ways you

1344
00:49:12,309 --> 00:49:11,040
can deal with that i mean i think the

1345
00:49:13,750 --> 00:49:12,319
fact that

1346
00:49:15,190 --> 00:49:13,760
you know as i think it was marilyn who

1347
00:49:16,309 --> 00:49:15,200
was saying earlier on somebody's you

1348
00:49:19,910 --> 00:49:16,319
know one of the things we could

1349
00:49:21,349 --> 00:49:19,920
definitely do is allow the receiver to

1350
00:49:23,589 --> 00:49:21,359
just sort of verbally go through these

1351
00:49:25,910 --> 00:49:23,599
mentations so maybe those points would

1352
00:49:28,470 --> 00:49:25,920
come out in that both both the

1353
00:49:29,750 --> 00:49:28,480
similarities and you know the the fact

1354
00:49:31,510 --> 00:49:29,760
that they might pick up on the

1355
00:49:33,829 --> 00:49:31,520
relaxating in the beach and stuff like

1356
00:49:34,870 --> 00:49:33,839
that but the issue is you know when we

1357
00:49:38,630 --> 00:49:34,880
show them

1358
00:49:40,870 --> 00:49:38,640
the set the the images um uh and they

1359
00:49:42,790 --> 00:49:40,880
have to pick one um you know the

1360
00:49:44,630 --> 00:49:42,800
question is do they get the one get the

1361
00:49:46,069 --> 00:49:44,640
target right more than chance or even if

1362
00:49:48,390 --> 00:49:46,079
we look at the effect sizes i mean

1363
00:49:50,470 --> 00:49:48,400
that's that's the issue um i think if

1364
00:49:51,829 --> 00:49:50,480
they're a similar i mean i mean in an

1365
00:49:53,349 --> 00:49:51,839
ideal world

1366
00:49:55,190 --> 00:49:53,359
well i don't know

1367
00:49:56,630 --> 00:49:55,200
it's an interesting question

1368
00:49:58,390 --> 00:49:56,640
you know do

1369
00:50:01,109 --> 00:49:58,400
you want them to be sort of sort of

1370
00:50:02,390 --> 00:50:01,119
similar in the sense well possibly

1371
00:50:05,750 --> 00:50:02,400
arousing

1372
00:50:07,430 --> 00:50:05,760
stimulating but perhaps different in as

1373
00:50:08,470 --> 00:50:07,440
a you know not necessarily having the

1374
00:50:11,670 --> 00:50:08,480
same

1375
00:50:13,670 --> 00:50:11,680
trying to think of a way of

1376
00:50:15,750 --> 00:50:13,680
encapsulating all of that

1377
00:50:17,430 --> 00:50:15,760
maybe less movement or something like

1378
00:50:19,589 --> 00:50:17,440
that because all of them well perhaps

1379
00:50:21,670 --> 00:50:19,599
not even less so the hot air ballooning

1380
00:50:23,670 --> 00:50:21,680
probably but movement there's a lot of

1381
00:50:25,270 --> 00:50:23,680
movement going on so maybe you could

1382
00:50:27,349 --> 00:50:25,280
have something more static or something

1383
00:50:29,510 --> 00:50:27,359
like that which you something happens to

1384
00:50:32,549 --> 00:50:29,520
you so but that's you know that's

1385
00:50:34,470 --> 00:50:32,559
definitely true and over time perhaps

1386
00:50:37,109 --> 00:50:34,480
we may be able to build up the database

1387
00:50:39,430 --> 00:50:37,119
of of images and then begin to sort of

1388
00:50:40,870 --> 00:50:39,440
run them and classify them in different

1389
00:50:43,589 --> 00:50:40,880
ways in the same way that you know the

1390
00:50:46,549 --> 00:50:43,599
iaps has already done so we were sort of

1391
00:50:49,589 --> 00:50:46,559
restricted to some extent by well we

1392
00:50:51,270 --> 00:50:49,599
were we were we sort of relied on um

1393
00:50:53,030 --> 00:50:51,280
we made assumptions i suppose is the

1394
00:50:55,430 --> 00:50:53,040
honest answer there we made assumptions

1395
00:50:57,510 --> 00:50:55,440
about the arousal and valence of the

1396
00:50:59,829 --> 00:50:57,520
clips based on the static images and

1397
00:51:01,829 --> 00:50:59,839
that that might be way off we may be off

1398
00:51:03,990 --> 00:51:01,839
base there completely um you know it

1399
00:51:05,750 --> 00:51:04,000
might be looking at an image of a i

1400
00:51:07,670 --> 00:51:05,760
don't know looking at an image of a man

1401
00:51:10,470 --> 00:51:07,680
skiing down the slopes you know might be

1402
00:51:12,950 --> 00:51:10,480
interesting and arousing but not as you

1403
00:51:14,870 --> 00:51:12,960
know stimulating and as arousing as if

1404
00:51:16,790 --> 00:51:14,880
you experience it in a vr environment

1405
00:51:19,349 --> 00:51:16,800
whereas you know looking or being in a

1406
00:51:21,510 --> 00:51:19,359
hot air balloon might not be you know so

1407
00:51:23,190 --> 00:51:21,520
whilst they you know static the static

1408
00:51:26,470 --> 00:51:23,200
images have similar

1409
00:51:27,750 --> 00:51:26,480
arousal ratings the vr clips may be very

1410
00:51:29,109 --> 00:51:27,760
very different

1411
00:51:30,630 --> 00:51:29,119
so you know that's something else we

1412
00:51:32,150 --> 00:51:30,640
would we would need to sort of start to

1413
00:51:33,030 --> 00:51:32,160
look into

1414
00:51:34,870 --> 00:51:33,040
yeah

1415
00:51:36,710 --> 00:51:34,880
i think

1416
00:51:38,710 --> 00:51:36,720
okay so we're getting close to the hour

1417
00:51:40,150 --> 00:51:38,720
but i got one more raised hand and we've

1418
00:51:42,069 --> 00:51:40,160
got a few more questions but i'm going

1419
00:51:44,230 --> 00:51:42,079
to take one last route hand and one more

1420
00:51:47,190 --> 00:51:44,240
question so i'm passing the mic now to

1421
00:51:50,150 --> 00:51:47,200
york in the meantime uh please please go

1422
00:51:55,589 --> 00:51:50,160
up vote the leftover question so i can

1423
00:51:58,309 --> 00:51:57,190
york good evening

1424
00:52:00,309 --> 00:51:58,319
hi

1425
00:52:01,829 --> 00:52:00,319
yes good evening

1426
00:52:05,270 --> 00:52:01,839
um

1427
00:52:07,510 --> 00:52:05,280
i'm afraid that i am still unclear on

1428
00:52:10,309 --> 00:52:07,520
this question of target selection

1429
00:52:12,710 --> 00:52:10,319
because as i understood your description

1430
00:52:16,790 --> 00:52:12,720
one session consists of

1431
00:52:18,470 --> 00:52:16,800
five different vr clips

1432
00:52:21,990 --> 00:52:18,480
interspersed with

1433
00:52:23,990 --> 00:52:22,000
resting periods of the beach scene yep

1434
00:52:26,309 --> 00:52:24,000
and then your

1435
00:52:29,190 --> 00:52:26,319
uh target identification the ranking you

1436
00:52:30,230 --> 00:52:29,200
you choose to decide

1437
00:52:32,630 --> 00:52:30,240
uh

1438
00:52:34,710 --> 00:52:32,640
no hold on a second what you saw or what

1439
00:52:37,109 --> 00:52:34,720
i gave you was literally one trial so

1440
00:52:37,910 --> 00:52:37,119
there are five trials within that vr

1441
00:52:39,829 --> 00:52:37,920
clip

1442
00:52:41,829 --> 00:52:39,839
where you see like resting beach but

1443
00:52:44,470 --> 00:52:41,839
then there's a target clip beach rest

1444
00:52:46,870 --> 00:52:44,480
target clip and every time that the

1445
00:52:48,950 --> 00:52:46,880
sender sees that target clip after

1446
00:52:51,589 --> 00:52:48,960
they've seen that in that rest phase

1447
00:52:54,069 --> 00:52:51,599
that's when the receiver would see on

1448
00:52:56,069 --> 00:52:54,079
their computer a set of five images

1449
00:52:58,549 --> 00:52:56,079
relate one relating to the

1450
00:52:59,670 --> 00:52:58,559
the target you know four decoys so it'll

1451
00:53:02,630 --> 00:52:59,680
be you

1452
00:53:06,390 --> 00:53:02,640
there are five sets of five if you like

1453
00:53:08,150 --> 00:53:06,400
oh so the receiver needs to make a

1454
00:53:09,430 --> 00:53:08,160
selection of what they think was the

1455
00:53:12,630 --> 00:53:09,440
target

1456
00:53:14,390 --> 00:53:12,640
within the trial period during the 45

1457
00:53:17,030 --> 00:53:14,400
seconds that the

1458
00:53:19,030 --> 00:53:17,040
sender is is relaxing with the beach

1459
00:53:23,030 --> 00:53:19,040
view

1460
00:53:26,710 --> 00:53:25,030
uh

1461
00:53:28,950 --> 00:53:26,720
okay that

1462
00:53:37,829 --> 00:53:28,960
raises a lot of question issues but

1463
00:53:40,309 --> 00:53:38,870
okay

1464
00:53:43,109 --> 00:53:40,319
so let's see what the winning last

1465
00:53:44,150 --> 00:53:43,119
question is

1466
00:53:46,710 --> 00:53:44,160
um

1467
00:53:48,549 --> 00:53:46,720
all right diane asks

1468
00:53:50,790 --> 00:53:48,559
have you thought of recruiting pairs of

1469
00:53:52,150 --> 00:53:50,800
people who always experience telepathy

1470
00:53:56,150 --> 00:53:52,160
together

1471
00:53:58,230 --> 00:53:56,160
in my experience i have particularly

1472
00:53:59,990 --> 00:53:58,240
oh god

1473
00:54:01,990 --> 00:54:00,000
ah

1474
00:54:03,430 --> 00:54:02,000
it's like the twin question it's you

1475
00:54:05,750 --> 00:54:03,440
know whenever it's like when you talk

1476
00:54:07,510 --> 00:54:05,760
about telepathy this i wanted like there

1477
00:54:09,430 --> 00:54:07,520
should be like a little cup that i could

1478
00:54:10,630 --> 00:54:09,440
give out at talks and whoever asked the

1479
00:54:12,549 --> 00:54:10,640
twin question

1480
00:54:14,230 --> 00:54:12,559
uh yes of course if we've considered

1481
00:54:15,829 --> 00:54:14,240
that like we've considered meditators we

1482
00:54:18,150 --> 00:54:15,839
considered married couples and the

1483
00:54:20,790 --> 00:54:18,160
reality is it's

1484
00:54:23,510 --> 00:54:20,800
what i mean what was amazing was how

1485
00:54:26,309 --> 00:54:23,520
long it took like three months to get

1486
00:54:28,549 --> 00:54:26,319
this 11 people in the lab and

1487
00:54:31,190 --> 00:54:28,559
unreal yeah of course we've considered

1488
00:54:33,430 --> 00:54:31,200
it i just don't have uh you know mad

1489
00:54:35,510 --> 00:54:33,440
hairs or whatever it is or telepathy

1490
00:54:36,470 --> 00:54:35,520
buddies or all that all that stuff i

1491
00:54:38,950 --> 00:54:36,480
mean it's

1492
00:54:40,870 --> 00:54:38,960
i mean actually just as a aside

1493
00:54:42,390 --> 00:54:40,880
you know it raises an important point

1494
00:54:44,789 --> 00:54:42,400
because it's this notion of if you like

1495
00:54:46,789 --> 00:54:44,799
pre-screening participants and one of

1496
00:54:48,549 --> 00:54:46,799
the things from patricio's recent

1497
00:54:49,910 --> 00:54:48,559
analysis is that you know pre-screening

1498
00:54:54,230 --> 00:54:49,920
participants you know if they've got

1499
00:54:58,789 --> 00:54:56,789
less trials and that's a good idea um

1500
00:55:01,750 --> 00:54:58,799
and we've tried that in the past with

1501
00:55:04,390 --> 00:55:01,760
the do other um research on

1502
00:55:06,549 --> 00:55:04,400
um the sort of dem pre-cognitive

1503
00:55:08,710 --> 00:55:06,559
retroactive um

1504
00:55:11,510 --> 00:55:08,720
facilitation stuff

1505
00:55:12,710 --> 00:55:11,520
we tried a pre-screening trial there and

1506
00:55:15,349 --> 00:55:12,720
we i mean we're still we're running

1507
00:55:17,750 --> 00:55:15,359
another one actually uh um in the coming

1508
00:55:19,510 --> 00:55:17,760
year but it's just

1509
00:55:20,070 --> 00:55:19,520
a nightmare trying to get these people

1510
00:55:23,670 --> 00:55:20,080
to come back

1511
00:55:25,270 --> 00:55:23,680
[Laughter]

1512
00:55:26,950 --> 00:55:25,280
getting them to come to the lab is hard

1513
00:55:28,870 --> 00:55:26,960
work getting to getting them to come

1514
00:55:30,950 --> 00:55:28,880
back you know when we don't have like

1515
00:55:33,910 --> 00:55:30,960
large sums of money to pay them is is

1516
00:55:35,589 --> 00:55:33,920
tremendously difficult uh and i i don't

1517
00:55:37,589 --> 00:55:35,599
know um we've tried to hook up with

1518
00:55:39,510 --> 00:55:37,599
various sort of buddhist centers around

1519
00:55:41,109 --> 00:55:39,520
canterbury but just at the moment with

1520
00:55:42,710 --> 00:55:41,119
lockdown it's and that's a challenge you

1521
00:55:45,750 --> 00:55:42,720
know we've been locked down for over a

1522
00:55:48,230 --> 00:55:45,760
year so no lab research everything's

1523
00:55:50,950 --> 00:55:48,240
gone and had to shift online so we've

1524
00:55:52,630 --> 00:55:50,960
been very restricted but yeah of course

1525
00:55:55,270 --> 00:55:52,640
i'd love to do that and

1526
00:55:57,589 --> 00:55:55,280
who wouldn't but the reality is it's

1527
00:55:59,990 --> 00:55:57,599
often a lot more difficult to get these

1528
00:56:03,270 --> 00:56:00,000
people to come to the lab and

1529
00:56:07,670 --> 00:56:03,280
more than once that makes sense well

1530
00:56:11,270 --> 00:56:09,750
well if anything else i mean

1531
00:56:12,870 --> 00:56:11,280
that's exactly it for me that would be

1532
00:56:15,589 --> 00:56:12,880
it i would like i would like this to

1533
00:56:17,109 --> 00:56:15,599
stimulate people to ask more questions

1534
00:56:18,950 --> 00:56:17,119
about you know where what could we use

1535
00:56:20,710 --> 00:56:18,960
this for where could we take it and i

1536
00:56:22,309 --> 00:56:20,720
really do think that

1537
00:56:23,670 --> 00:56:22,319
there's a whole lot of different areas

1538
00:56:26,710 --> 00:56:23,680
where you know

1539
00:56:28,150 --> 00:56:26,720
kicking around ideas for vr kit and you

1540
00:56:29,910 --> 00:56:28,160
know and i think it's a lot of fun and i

1541
00:56:31,190 --> 00:56:29,920
think that aspect of it the fun aspect

1542
00:56:33,510 --> 00:56:31,200
is actually important as well i mean

1543
00:56:35,510 --> 00:56:33,520
i've been 20 years in psychology

1544
00:56:37,589 --> 00:56:35,520
experiments where we literally bore the

1545
00:56:39,030 --> 00:56:37,599
pants off our participants and and i

1546
00:56:41,190 --> 00:56:39,040
think you know parapsychology is no

1547
00:56:43,109 --> 00:56:41,200
different you know endless boring trials

1548
00:56:44,870 --> 00:56:43,119
of this that and i just think if you try

1549
00:56:46,870 --> 00:56:44,880
and make it a bit more fun we might

1550
00:56:47,670 --> 00:56:46,880
actually find some more robust effects

1551
00:56:49,510 --> 00:56:47,680
so

1552
00:56:52,150 --> 00:56:49,520
and if everybody has fun that's a good